Tongues Issue
Hello again everybody,
I received the following quite quickly. Some are long but instead of
chopping this one up, I have listed them all complete. Every one pretty
much agrees about the same except two, which I put on the top. John
thinks that tongues is not evidence while Bill thinks that tongues are
the only evidence. Bill asks the question about I Corinthians 12:7 and
the "manifestation." When I see that scripture in context, it explains
itself by speaking of the diversity of gifts, not just one. Others have
already answered the question here, but maybe there are those who would
like to come back and explain it on the basis of that scripture to
possibly clear up any confusion Bill has without it seeming that we are
ganging up on him. And maybe others might want to speak to John's
statements. Tongues is a sign. Is John right in that it is not evidence
at all but only a sign? I think that this close to unanimous agreement
shows a lot of maturity in this group. To me, that is evidence in itself
of the Holy Ghost.
Jay.
I would ask what you would do with the verse of scripture in I
Cor.12:7.
It states that the "Manifestation" of the Spirit is given to each one,
thats
all of them for the common good. The Original manifestation was
Tongues. It
can not be "Gifts per se, because Paul said under the inspiration of
the
same Spirit that they were given to those He choose as he saw fit, in
other
words not everyone got the same things. The Apostles were convinced
that the
Gentiles were filled with GODS spirit because they "Heard them Speak in
Tongues and Magnify God as we did at the first." I must disagree with
you
about the evidence because of these and other scriptures, if we want
the
original we must have it like the original or we set ourselves up to
receive
some thing not from God.
Bill Hawkins
Your terminology is wrong. The Infilling of the Holy Ghost with the
sign of
speaking in tongues. Sign of the infilling of the Spirit. The
evidence of
the Holy Ghost is the divine nature displayed in our life. It is the
Character of Jesus in our actions and speach that doesnt not violate
the
written Word but fulfills it.
Today there are lots of people who speak in tongues and have a devil.
The
tongues is a sign of receiving a spirit not the evidence of the Holy
Ghost.
John D. Burns
I teach much the same as you do here. In fact, I do not know that i
CAN make the same point any more clear than you have in these few
paragraphs. And with some humor, I will wish for you that the Holy
Spirit fall on you "like a ton of bricks",...and stay on you like the
stickiest of the stickiest muds,...it makes for a very humorous image,
don't you think? But has a very real truth in it.
--
TheSilverPaladin
On tongues and the Holy Spirit, my pastor has taught it like this:
When we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, we 'can' speak in tongues,
meaning
we have the ability. Some do not exercise this ability, and that is
their
choice. Some are not taught about the gift and have no idea, others
just
'groan', a type of tongues.
I never would teach that you must speak in tongues if you are baptized
with
the Holy Spirit. That would be as crazy as saying 'you must witness' as
a
result of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Even though the dunamis
power
came on them for 'witnessing' in Acts, we cannot put what 'witness'
means in
a box.
Perhaps men have tried to put 'tongues' in a box also.
Just some thoughts and I agree with you on this issue,
Laurie
Dear Jay,
Below are some thoughts on the "tongues" issues, along with some
scriptures:
46. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then
Peter said,
I Co. 14 18. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
While speaking in tongues may "signify" the baptism in the Spirit to
some,
it should be quite obvious that also prophecy and the "evidence" of the
presence of the Holy Spirit is of even more primary importance. So
then,
what should the evidence be? Paul states that he would rather speak
five
intelligible words to instruct others than "ten thousand words in a
tongue."
Also, while the "edification" of speaking in tongues may well be
important
in our own prayer language, it should become quite obvious that when we
as
believers come together, that something needs to be deciphered with
what the
tongue is saying. Then of course, an interpretation of that tongue is
necessary, and one should pray for the ability to interpret.
As has been said, these things are perhaps not the issue here, but what
then
should be the "evidence" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Again, it
seems
that prophecy is something which seems to be ignored with the initial
inception of receiving the Holy Spirit. And many receive the baptism
of the
Holy Spirit, oftentimes, through a prophetic word. And "all may
prophesy,"
and we are told to seek this gift, so then why is tongues something
which
many claim to be the evidence of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps it is the
way in
which tongues somehow "speaks" of the presence of the Lord in a
miraculous
way to some, I don't know....I have a hard time with those who have
said
that one must "speak in tongues" as the evidence of the baptism of the
Holy
Spirit. While I believe it to be a sign and something important to the
individual's own spiritual life, I don't necessarily believe that all
must
speak in tongues. I think the real problem is when we may force or
attempt
to get a new believer into "speaking in tongues." When we may try to
coerce
them in any way, then hurts the ability of the Holy Spirit to direct
His
gifts as He would.
As for love or the "fruits" of the Holy Spirit being the evidence of
the
baptism of the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that these qualities are
obviously important to the Christian. Gal. 5: 22. " But the fruit of
the
Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23.
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24.
Those
who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its
passions and desires. 25. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in
step
with the Spirit." (I believe, that these qualites are important, and
they
show forth the character of Christ in us, but then, I have heard some
say
that these then are the "only" signs which we should see in ourselves
to
signify the Lord's presence. These are those who then deny the present
"gifts of the Spirit," and then put undo emphasis on these qualities
instead. However, then we can go the other way, and give "undo
emphasis on
the gifts of the Spirit," and ignore the "fruits." So, to me, these
qualities of the Spirit, are important, and may well show the evidence
of
the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," in a person's life. But again, these
qualites are oftentimes, qualities which may take time to develop in
our
lives. A tree or a plant does not grow overnight, and patience is a
fruit
which does not develop overnight.
These are some of my thoughts,
Jay,
I receive what you are saying about the evidence of
the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I too believe that it
is erroneous to only say that the evidence is speaking
in tongues. You can speak with the tongues of angels,
but if you don't have charity, you have nothing.
Help me to understand how to respond to people
scripturally that speaking in tongues is not the
primary evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks and keep sending me your e-mails.
P.S. Do you have any material concerning true tithing?
I have been a faithful tither for 15 years, but am
now seeing that I have believed fallacies about it.
Jay
I'm with you on the stances you have just stated.
Greetings in the name of the risen Lord Jesus,
The issue of tongues is certainly one that has not gone without
attention. Even during the apostolic
ministries we find evidence of the very confusion that exists even
today. It is the flesh in each of us that
cause the confusion, as well as the contention because the gift itself
is from God and comes without
baggage. Our motivation must be that of love, and not vindication of
personal conviction because the
kingdom of God does not rely on human argument, but rather what God has
spoken. Our righteousness is
the righteousness of Christ Jesus, and not of our own doing. So also are
the gifts themselves a product of
the righteousness and grace of our Lord, and since the command given us
by Him who is our righteousness
was to "Love one another", it is crucial that every single motivation
must have a foundation of this love.
Any thought, action, or word that is void of Christ's love, is certain
to be either the work of our own flesh, or
an extension of the enemy working in us. If we claim to love the Lord,
then it will be proven to him by how
we love each other.
In coming together for worship and fellowship, should not the focus be
on the Lord and others, rather than
on ourselves? If one speaks of God in praise, then others can share in
this and the entire body is in one
accord by worshipping in spirit. If the Lord gives a word of knowledge
to one, and they share this
knowledge, again entire body is blessed and the Lord glorified. If
however, one person stands up and
speaks but no one understands (including the person speaking), how is
the body blessed, or the Lord
glorified? If this single question cannot be answered by reason, or by
God's word, then something is amiss.
This is often multiplied by several standing and speaking but offering
no understanding. Of what benefit is
this?
I realize I am paraphrasing Paul's epistle to the church in Corinth and
assume that all have read this many
times before. The important question is, what can be done about it, to
educate and remove the barriers
between those who do not agree on this issue? If something cannot be
accomplished through love and
patience, it is not worth accomplishing. Debates often lead to
arguments, and arguments to bitterness. Once
we abandon godly love for one another in the interest of truth, we no
longer represent that truth but only
our own conviction of truth. I urge anyone who brings forth this
discussion to constantly test their words
against [1 Corinthians 13:4-7]. We cannot forsake the foundational
message of the gospel to prove right or
wrong, especially when we know that we too are fallible.
In most cases, those who have received a questionable doctrine are not
at fault (although they should
eventually discover this through a relationship with the God of truth).
When they began to seek God, they
looked in the most probable place to find him, which is a church.
Unaware perhaps of the various "flavors"
of Christianity available, they assume a uniform system of belief. What
they often find is an "image of God",
that has been formed by the church's ideals and doctrine. Accepting that
they have found God, they stop
looking for Him and become an intricate part of the particular church
they attend, and worship whatever
image is presented to them. Naturally, worshipping the image and not the
person of God is idolatry, but
most are oblivious to this and never develop a relationship with the
Lord (but are convinced they have).
As the only relationship is within the congregational organization, the
head is not Christ and allegiance is to
the organization and it's doctrine, rather than to the Lord. This
covenant of flesh is quite strong and is not
easily broken because the enemy desires to keep them from the
realization of their predicament. What better
way for Satan to disguise himself as an angel of light, than by keeping
the focus of worship on signs and
wonders rather than on our creator? We know however that the proof is in
the fruit. Christ was productive
in everything He did, and we are to imitate the same attitude and
productivity (not out of ambition, but out
of love and obedience). Things that are not in keeping with Christ's
template of godliness should be
carefully scrutinized by the individual to determine their worth.
Examining each issue against the scriptures
and through prayer are excellent and effective means of testing the
spirit. However, those who have fallen
victim to this "alter-image" of God, are unaware of the spirit by which
they are receiving revelation and
knowledge, and without intervention risk growth not towards, but away
from the living God.
The crucial point is in approaching those within a scenario such as
this. Without direction from the Holy
Spirit, we risk damaging any chance of our effectiveness with the
person, and only strengthen the yoke they
have with err. Because there are many parallels between true worship and
image worship, they will look
upon someone with an opposing doctrine as a threat, whose source is
Satan (much the same as true
worshippers would). Sensitivity to their situation is critical in
becoming an effective witness to the true
Gospel. Proceeding without a leading from the Lord is inviting disaster,
and works only to assist the enemy.
My hope is that the Lord will lead every individual in taking back what
the wolves have stolen from us, that
we may rejoice with the heavenly host of the victory in Christ.
Abundant grace and peace be yours in Christ,
Hi Jay;
This is a very interesting subject to me. I am Baptized with the Holy
Spirit and I speak in tongues (ALOT). By this I am referring to my own
prayer time, not a gift of speaking in tongues. The Holy Spirit
revealed to
me that I needed to use "my prayer language" every day - that it was
very
important.
Anyway, I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when I was a baby
Christian, 2-3 weeks old. It is an experience that I will NEVER
forget,
right up there with my salvation experience. I don't recall there
being
evidence of speaking in tongues initially. My pastor (Assembly of God)
says
that he heard me speak an utterance which was enough evidence for him.
I am
not sure about that. I remember the doubt the devil tried to sow in me
for
several days to weeks about whether or not I was really filled because
"didn't the pastor say you must speak initially and you didn't, did
you?".
I KNEW that something wonderful happened to me at that altar but the
devil
kept whispering into my mind, "You really didn't speak in tongues did
you?
Didn't the pastor say that you must speak in tongues to have the
evidence of
the Infilling?"
The following Saturday I was at Full Gospel Businessmen's breakfast
meeting.
I went up for prayer and described what had happened to me. Rather
than
pray for the Baptism we all just held hands in a circle and the other
men
began to pray in the Spirit. It was at that moment that I can truly
remember speaking in other tongues for the first time. There was no
longer
any doubt about it - I knew at that instant that I had really been
filled
previously and that the devil had tried desperately to rob me of that
blessing/power. I have often wondered about this - why didn't I speak
in
tongues at the church when I first received the Baptism? Or did I?
Of course, those around me insist that they heard something but I
certainly
don't recall it. I am not convinced that there must be initial
evidence of
the Baptism by the speaking in tongues. I am convinced however that
all
spirit-filled believers can and must speak in tongues at some point
after
the Baptism. I do agree that 99% of the Infillings I have seen or been
a
part of or heard about have been accompanied by the immediate evidence
of
speaking in tongues. Sometimes I wonder if we (man)are guilty of
sending
away people who are seeking the Baptism or rob them of an infilling
because
we insist on the immediate evidence of it? Do we discount someone's
salvation if they don't immediately break down and sob when they
receive
Jesus into their heart? Is there always, 100% of the time. initial
evidence
of true conversions? Maybe this is a subject matter for a different
dialogue but that just came to mind as I asked the Lord for wisdom in
this
response.
I probably haven't shed much light onto this topic but I can say this:
I
received the Baptism as a baby Christian; I don't remember speaking
initial
evidence of tongues; those praying for me/laying on hands say there
must
have been an utterance (10 years ago) because the bible says it is so;
the
devil came at me constantly with doubt about that fact; I spoke freely
and
instantly in tongues with spirit-filled believers within 1-2 weeks of
my
original Infilling; and PRAISE GOD FOR HIS SPIRIT!!!
By the way, the Lord used me to baptize my girlfriend at that time in
His
Spirit (my wife today) who herself was a baby Christian - she was maybe
4
weeks old and I was maybe 6 weeks old, 4 weeks filled with the Spirit.
Isn't He awesome? What a blessing. Now my wife was filled, complete
with
initial evidence of speaking in tongues and she hasn't shut up since!!!
I can't imagine life without the power of God's Holy Spirit - thank you
Lord.
Brian Tanguay
Hello Jay,
Tongues is an excellent topic to discuss. First, I believe it would be
necessary to scripturally establish in our understanding the value of
the
gift of tongues. However, let me go on record in saying, I don't
believe
you can Biblically teach that tongues is THE initial evidence of the
Baptism with the Holy Ghost. The Apostles taught no such doctrine or
dogma. If we look at it as "a" (not "the") common occurance (or
denominator) associated with it, then we would have Scriptural backing.
To dogmatically declare it to be THE initial evidence is stepping
beyond
the boundaries of scriptural authority. When it comes to establishing a
Church doctrine or dogma we must have clear and precise scriptural
backing.
The Importance and Necessity of Tongues
1 Corinthians 13: 8-13 establishes the importance and necessity of the
gift of tongues (also the rest of the gifts).
In Verse 11 of this passage, Paul differentiates a child-stage (era)
from
a man-stage. The difference is obvious: A man is more mature - far more
advanced than a child.
This passage could be broke down as follows:
In the child-stage:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure which stage we are in
presently. Because of our inability to know and see God and all that
pertains to Him, we need the gifts of the Spirit. This "handicap" we
have
in this age necessitates our specific need for the gift of tongues.
This
gift is the Holy Spirit worshipping, prophesying, speaking or praying
through us (whichever's applicable) in an unknown language, bypassing
our
minds and , thus, causing us to overcome our "handicap" i.e. our
partial
knowledge or seeing through a glass darkly. Without it we would be at a
great disadvantage. Wouldn't you agree?
Everyone should desire to speak in tongues according to 1 Corinthians
14:1. When Paul asked the question, "Do all speak with tongues", and if
we interpret it in its context we would understand that he was
referring
to the public use of it. All can speak with tongues in its private use
referred to in Charismania as the "prayer language"...because all need
the ability to overcome the "handicap" beginning at our newbirth. The
only other way of overcoming this (as far as I know) that God has
provided is in becoming mature. This is a long process though. Who can
endure it? Tongues gives us an advantage even in this process. Whew!
Thank God.
No more of that. What is the sure evidence we should be looking for in
determining who has received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost? What did
the Lord tell John the Baptist to look for in reference to Jesus? "And
John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like
a
dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to
baptize with water, the same said unto me, 'Upon whom thou shalt see
the
Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth
with the Holy Ghost' " (John 1: 32, 33).
We must be able to determine by the Spirit when He comes UPON someone
and
remains. This is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy
Ghost.
When He comes upon someone, that person will have become clothed or
enveloped with Power from on High. What comes up and out of that person
as the result of this "coming upon" by the Spirit (otherwise known as
the infilling) should be left up to that person and the Holy Spirit. I
have "seen" the Spirit come upon people, the River flow out of their
belly, and them not speak with tongues, yet He did come upon them and
remain. That was enough evidence. If it was good enough for John the
Baptist, it is good enough for me.
In conclusion, I am not saying that tongues is not a common sign
accompanying the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. They were quite common in
the book of Acts as an outward sign of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost,
but no where in their writings did the Apostles establish it as the
initial evidence. If they didn't, then can we? The Lord obviously
established what it is through John the Baptist.
We should place more emphasis on receiving a greater dimension of the
person of the Holy Spirit in reference to this baptism, than upon a
gift
or sign accompanying it. The Father's main objective in placing His
Spirit upon someone is not to produce tongues, yet that is the way it
is
in many circles today. In my experience with Charismania, this has
often
been the case. What is the Father's main objective then? I will let
y'all
answer that. I am out of breath.
This evidence demands a verdict. What's the consensus?
Abundant grace to all,
Well, since I just preached on this one, I can reply easily enough!
I agree with you 100%. the gift of tongues is mentioned in 1 Cor. 12
and
14 as being A gift of the Spirit. In fact, in 1 Cor. 14, Paul writes to
correct the mis-use of this gift, and reminds us that prophecy (the
forth-telling of God's Word) is a more desirable gift, because the
Gifts
of the Spirit are given to all for the benefit of all... and the Holy
Spirit gives the gifts as He determines..
I have had many long conversations with AOG ministers and understand
their position ( tongues is THE evidence of the Baptism) but I find no
real scriptural evidence to support such a position.
Acts 10: 44 - 46 also describes the speaking of tongues by the Gentiles
in Caesera. This scripture says that they recieved the Gift of the
Spirit
and spoke in tongues. Many people use this a proof text for the
speaking
of tongues as THE evidence.... however, this particular event came on
the
heels of Pentecost, and it was the Holy Spirit's way of confirming His
presence with the Gentiles since they recieved the Same GIFT AS THE
Apostles.... this does not prove that tongues is anything more than one
of the gifts.
Also, I am convinced that we have a wrong understanding of what tongues
really are. It is not some esoteric prayer language, but is in fact the
supernatural ability to speak in a language unkown to the speaker FOR
THE
PROFIT OF ALL and as a SIGN for the UNBELIEVER (read 1 Cor. 12 - 14)
Also, sandwiched in between these chapters on gifts is the wonderful
chapter 13... the love chapter...
If we have all of the gifts and have not love, we have nothing at
all....
Pursue gifts, do not forbid the speaking of tongues (if there is an
interpreter) but desire prophecy that all may be edified.
Thats the Word on the subject.
God's grace to you,
Mark O.
Amen. I agree 100%. And this error has wreaked havoc in
many churches as well as individual's lives.
God Bless,
first of all jay, i believe that even the concept "proof of" the
baptism
is way off center. it is like saying "i will test your spirituality by
if
you can produce as evidence this gift." in a way that is like saying "
i will
test you to see how fast your car is by timing you with this
stopwatch." but
then it is mentioned that tongues is an evidence of the baptism of the
holy
spirit. i believe that although it is not mentioned in the bible,, the
evidence is also that one prophesys, or one has a word of wisdom,, and
certainly the proof is the fruit of the spirit. that is the real
evidence,
the fruit of the spirit. and also i have to say here, that if someone
needs a
show of spirituality, like a miracle being performed, then i would have
to
question if that person is in need of the baptisim of the holy spirit,,
as
these things are spiritually descerned.
i
have sought god about this and this is what i believe to be the answer
that
he has placed in my spirit and in my mind: there is two differend
manifestations mentioned in the bible,, one the gift in operation on
the day
of penticost. in this manifestation the word of god was spoken in the
language of those hearing the message, it could have even been the
other way
around just as easily, where the word of god is heard in the language
of the
hearer. this is the language barrier being taken away. there is an
obvious
advantage of having this gift.
another not quite as
obvious
gift is the gift of tongues, mentioned in the corinthians. in this
manifestation, the believer is given the gift of an enhanced prayer
life, in
that he or she can pray without the limitations of human judgement
getting in
the way of the will of god. in this way the prayers of the saints can
completely yeild to the will of god in that there is a mergeing of the
believers spirit and the holy spirit. this is sort of a mantra also,
in that
a person can meditate on the lord, without any "mind clutter" getting
in the
way. there are myriad uses of this gift.
i believe that where people have turned against this gift is when
it has
been misused, as often ministers will say some garbled nonsence and
have
someone "interpret" according to the prearrainged program that ministry
is
pushing. usually the interpretation has something to do with tithes
and
offerings, but often there is other suggestions,, such as the "will of
god"
concerning someone of the hiarchy and some sister in the church..
abuses of
the ministrys have also turned honest seekers of truth away from
prophesy,
miracles, words of knowledge and words of wisdom, healing, etc.
your
friend, and brother in christ,
bordtodis
Jay:
From what I can read in the bible, you are right, where the Holy
Ghost
is there is also love.
Now about the fleece, remember Luke 11, when they ask Jesus for a
sign
from heaven, what did he say to them?
Now for the resurrection, there will be three all together, the
first
being Jesus himself, where he rose from the dead and seated at the
right
hand of His Father, the second being the resurrection of the dead in
Christ,
then the ones that are here still on the earth serving till His coming.
love in Christ
Tina
January 20, 2000
47. "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?
They
have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." Acts 10
39. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid
speaking in tongues.
40. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. Acts
14
19. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to
instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20. Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be
infants,
but in your thinking be adults.
21. In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and
through
the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they
will
not listen to me," says the Lord.
22. Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
23. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in
tongues,
and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they
not
say that you are out of your mind?
Stephen Hanson
Thanks again....Jay Daniels
amen brother.
If the Only Evidence of the Baptism is speaking in tongues, then there
is a
problem...
When He comes in, He is more than tongues... He is the giver of
tongues, the
giver of all the other manifestations..
the giver of love...
"by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have
love
one toward another..."
It is indeed time to depart from error and to seek the Lord.
Bro. Paul
Timothy J Roy
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part
shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I
thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish
things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now
I
know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest
of these is charity.
1.) Knowledge is in part (vs. 9, 12),
2.) Prophesying is in part (v. 9),
3.) Tongues are necessary (including the rest of gifts) because of
knowledge being in part (v. 8) and
4.) We see through a glass darkly (v. 12).
In the man-stage:
1.) Partial knowledge gives way to our knowing as we are known (v. 12),
2.) Our seeing through a glass darkly gives way to our seeing face to
face (v. 12),
3.) That which is in part is done away with, for that which is perfect
or
complete has come (v. 10), and
4.) There is no need for the gifts of the Spirit (vs. 9, 12).
Gary P.
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