Brotherly Love
This forum has been a very good thing for me but sometimes, good things must come to an end. I have had very positive responses from many, we have all been blessed from sharing what we feel would bring unity to the body simply from what the Lord has put on our hearts. By coming together in love and humility, we have done what we could to identify schisms and heal the root causes of division that has plagued the church for so long. What I hear is that there will be a new standard right now, a transition from one step with the latter rain list to another. What that is, I'm not sure but it must be a good thing. What I do know is that I will be busy working on my Master's degree this year as well as putting together a deliverance ministry here in Stockton for the down and out. I plan to do what I can to initiate a housing rehab program for the homeless. Pray for me. I will be disbanding the Yahoo list and changing this discussion list to a newsletter format and submit words from time to time. Lengthy discussion is no more. I no longer have the desire nor wish to take the time. Now is the time to put words into action. For those of you that have participated and patiently listened during these last two years, thank you.
They say that Jesus saves. Is that true? Of course it is, it is His salvation that Christianity offers the world and Jesus is right here in spirit calling us to accept it. That's right, the entire world. Are Muslims saved? It is not ours to judge, any more than to judge anyone else as unworthy of salvation. We do however have a responsibility to know the truth as God would have us know it and to bring the truth to others.
Mohammed has been criticized for having his people go to war to spread the message of Islam. Think upon these following verses for a moment:
"I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee."
These verses are not from the Koran, they are from Exodus, Deuteronomy and Joshua. Jesus changed all that on the cross, He has brought us the grace to love our enemies, not destroy them. We are under a New Covenant but Islam is still under the Old. These are not just platitudes according to what we have been taught, Jesus is the essence of truth itself. Those that have come through the spirit know the truth because God's spirit bears witness with our own spirit that we are the children of God. Light will dispel the darkness but we must love others and woo them with truth, not condemnation.
Koran 40:41 "And, O my people! how is it that I call you to salvation and you call me to the fire?"
Jesus brought love and salvation to us, I would like to concentrate on what unites us but if anyone, Jews, Christians or Muslims want to concentrate on what divides us then so be it. We are among the restitution of all things.
Anyone who accepts Jesus, repents and is baptized becomes a child of God. The promise of Abraham is that all families shall be blessed and that is through Jesus, not any other. Mohammed may have been sent as an apostle to unify the sons of Islam but if this teaching justifies killing innocent Christians, then it is a false teaching. There is One true God, in essence, through the manifestations of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Must these things be accepted completely to be justified? Again, it is not ours to judge but we can easily distinguish who is of the God of love and who is of the god of hatred.
Christians are taught that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave, Muslims are taught that Jesus did not die at all, much less on a cross. We can get around that with spiritual truth but the message of the cross is integral to God's plan of salvation, if one is indwelled with the true spirit of God, the atonement will be accepted as fact but more than that is the insistence that we must have to get them saved according to spirit and truth. These things are so obvious to us but many minds are clouded by religion.
I can no longer say that I have not been approached in love by a Muslim. Read on of the dialogue that went on with one that comes as a seeker of truth. Also read the responses and comments below that I hope and pray will make you think.
Jay
Blessings from Christ Jesus directly to my brother Jay, is my prayer this night: Jay in the URL below there is an interesting take in the conservative "World Magazine" pits the Muslim religion in an antithetical light to Christianity, which is the take from most conservative Christian teachings. In essence never the 'twain shall meet,' I honestly do not know. I enjoyed your piece about women in Islam but I've been gone from the "archive" for a time if this is something that has already been covered. Spreading the Gospel in any fundamentalist Moslem country is a death sentence. My church began to pray for the missionaries in Afghanistan that were under the death sentence. The political Muslim world is as heinous as the political medieval Christian world. Western Christianity seems to have changed. Islam has mostly not changed. Education seems to give it a chance but then Bin laden was educated. The folks that are waging this unholy war that they deem holy, many of them, (including the 9-11 participants) are educated. I honestly do not know, but I think there is something askew. If they are the same God and the difference is that there is a battle between Ishmael and Isaac, who are brothers then there is hope. If at the base Ishmael is worshiping a false or the god of this world-- there is no hope. Those of the conservative base camp who say Jehovah and Allah are not the same fellow do have some interesting and compelling arguments. I sincerely hope they are wrong, and please direct me to those arguments that are compelling reasons that He is the same god I worship, for if they are not it will eventually be war all the time. Or an uneasy truce punctuated by terror all the time. Which is where we seem to be headed despite the pluralistic rhetoric to the contrary.
James Kelly
http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/10-27-01/cover_3.asp
Jay,
I have only one comment on this one and it's in regards to your last question here. If you want to witness to someone, no matter what their beliefs may be, approach them with a spirit of love and acceptance, just as Jesus would do. By doing that, Jesus will work through you, it won't be of your own doing. If he has a message to send to a person, he is quite capable of handling that on his own, all you have to do is approach the person in love so that they will open the door...he does the rest. If you feel someone sees you as an "infidel" or "unbeliever", then show them that you're not by the way you treat them, the way you live your life. Actions speak much louder than words.
Just one person's opinion......
Cindy
To "see" the kingdom of God, one must be born again. The word explains itself to those who are in the kingdom (Life) and works powerfully on the lost to save. Sadly, the revelation of the Word is veiled even from the believer by their own darkness as well as the lost. Without sanctification to a level of holiness that allows the spiritual eyes to see, women are treated as the enemy desires. What can we expect from those in darkness. The Quran is a powerless book to the believer and a trap to the Moslem who believes that the words in that book are a revelation through Mohammed from God. I would agree that it is a revelation from god. That god births his revelation in violence disguised, an angel of light with hatred behind the disguise. The Moslems on the fringes from the revelation of Mohammed are peaceful people. Like most cults, the higher you go or the deeper you get, you begin to see the face of Lucifer. Using the discernment of spirits that we have as a gift, one can sense, something is wrong in Moslemland. To see God's love for women, see that Adam was responsible for eating of the fruit, also, Jesus said to the woman "Where are your accusers" etc. Men are now held responsible for the dominion of the earth due to the restoration of all things by the second Adam. This includes God's purpose for women, the family, the church and the community. To whom much is given, much is required.
Larry Sloma
All praise belongs to Allah. Lord of the worlds.
Dear Mr. Atkinson,
I found your web site to be very informative and interesting. I think I shall spend much time studying it. I am of the Muslim faith and am seeking to educate myself about the details of what was revealed to the other prophets before prophet Mohammad (PBUH).
I was reading your very informative article about Abraham (PBUH) and I had a question about the approximate age of Ishmael when Hagar and the Lad were sent away. As mentioned in your article, when Isaac was born, Ishmael was about 13 years of age. Shortly following, Hagar and the Lad were sent away, yet when the article talks about what transpired on Hagar in the wilderness, it seems as though Ishmael was an infant. I believe Islamic teachings also place the age of Ishmael at the time as being an infant.
At another place in your web I read that you believe that the successful sect of Islam will be the one that accepts Jesus. All Muslims believe in Jesus, but we believe him to be, not son of God, but a prophet and servant of God. We believe that there were many messengers sent to earth but five of them being more prominent and closer to Allah than the others. More senior to the others. We believe that these five are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (Isa), and Mohammad, peace and salutations be upon all of them. The very first declaration of Islam is that there is no God but Allah; All Muslim sects must by definition believe in the unity of God. We also believe that it was not Jesus who was crucified but another person in his place; And Jesus is alive and with God and will return to Earth one day.
Anyway, I think you are a great source of information. I hope you will not mind my putting in my 2 cents worth.
I look forward to talking with you more.
Thank you.
Peace and Justice to all.
(name respectfully withheld), California
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Hi,
Good to hear from you and I cannot say that to everyone. I have taken a different approach to Islam that other Christians in that I have defended them more instead of bashing them. Of course murderers, terrorists and oppressors from any religion are a different thing altogether. I think you would agree.
You are to be commended in the search as to the other prophets, I also made this search and is a reason that we can discuss these things. The age of Ishmael would be according to the Genesis genealogies which are very precise, I don't have time to search it but I have in the past. As to Jesus being crucified, it was Jesus for sure and if you want to believe that He was not killed, it does not hurt the reality of the atonement at all, since His spirit did not see death. As to someone else being put there in His place, it was you and me. He died for the sins of the world to redeem mankind from the penalty of death. As far as I know there is not a reference that there was another put there in His place in the Koran but rather that the crucifixion appeared so, maybe you have seen something there that I did not. I have heard it before but I don't hold much to the "traditions" of men.
The whole of the atoning work of God is wrapped up in the story of the cross. This is the beginning and end of prophecy. If you have truly began to read any of the things that God has already taught me though my studies, you may have already found that I teach reason as well as faith. We are created in God's image and whether He is called by Allah, Jehovah, Eli or anything else, if it is the true God that is addressed, He is certainly a reasonable God, so we should be no different. According to reason, the redemption story must make sense. Not merely accepted by blind faith but worked out intellectually and experientially in order to understand why God chose this process. Mohammed was not humanly taught by those understanding it. He was confronted by Arian and Gnostic heretics who had twisted the Christian scriptures to their own understanding. Today we know better but God has always had those that are taught by His spirit, they may be in the minority, for one is not a Christian by being born into a Christian family or even by saying that you are one but by regeneration through the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the difference between merely believing in Jesus and actually possessing Him. Once that happens, it is no longer intellectual understanding but spiritual and it comes with power. I am waiting for the Muslim who can truly be baptized in the Holy Spirit and come into that unity of truth. If Allah be true, then He has sent His Holy Spirit among us and can be approached and appropriated. The truth of the atoning sacrifice however, must be accepted for the regeneration to occur and the power appropriated. That means putting away the traditions of men and the doctrines of demons and casting ourselves completely onto the living Lord, whether one is Christian, Moslem or Jew.
There has been much taught concerning the Jewish remnant but the fact is that there is a Christian one too. If that is true, and it is, then it is my contention that there may be a Muslim remnant that will be called as well. God has a people but He also has a people within a people that He will reveal things to supernaturally, not just from the traditions that have twisted His will but so guided in His perfect will that the unity will come according to His will and not through the pridely false authority of men. The remnant coming together in unity and the beauty of holiness will be the fulfillment of love that will bring Jesus back. We are all waiting for Him but the fact is that He is waiting on us to finally get it together.
Without knowing it, you have been a real help. I am in the process of discussing Islam with my discussion group and I have not found it to be an easy task. You have given me some thoughts to ponder and also some hope for a brighter future.
Respond if you like. I am also in California at Stockton, where are you from?
Jay
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Hi Jay,
I appreciate your response.
You mentioned that I was to be commended for my search into the revelation to the "other" prophets. But in fact we Muslims believe in all those other prophets as the prophets of the same one God, each one confirming the message of the previous one. I believe that with the coming of the last two prophets, Jesus, and Mohammad (PBUT), there was a split in the people, thereby producing the three religions. But all prophets are of the same one God.
I assume that the word "Remnant" refers to a someone who will one day return to earth to guide the people and establish God's Justice in the land. The Muslims do in fact believe in such a person; We refer to him as the Hujjah (Hooj-jah). Most believe that he is not yet born, but a few in the minority believe that he was born as the 12th descendant of the prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and is currently in occultation. Some Muslims believe that he will return when, as you put it, "we finally get it together". It is our belief that His return will coincide with the return of Jesus (PBUH).
Question: Was Mary closely related to Moses and Aaron, perhaps their sister, or am I way off the timeline?
Where am I from?; My parents happen to have been born in India, their ancestors at some time in history probably came from the Iran, Iraq, region. I happen to have been born in Pakistan; And my children happen to have been born in California. Where am I from, does it matter. I'm pretty sure that I am a descendant of prophet Abraham, through Ishmael, and eventually through Mohammad (PBUT).
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Hi again,
I am appreciating this dialogue. Since we are sharing each others beliefs, I work under the assumption that we are both searching for the truth and have insights to share with each other. If I refer to the Lord as "God" or "Lord," this is merely the way we refer to Him without naming Him by any name, you can understand that it is merely cultural and includes Jehovah and Allah as well. Many Christians disagree with Allah being part of that but all Christian churches teach differently and they can not be all right, can they. In fact Jehovah as not even a name but the description of Him as being the "I AM" or pure existence as given to Moses, we are because He is.
Since you begin with the subject of prophets, I should let you know that we are part of the five-fold ministry that accepts prophets and apostles as continuing throughout the modern era as well as pastors, evangelists and teachers. As far as I know, the Koran teaches the same that we do concerning an apostle as one "being sent" by the true God. Many are still being sent today but most Christian teachers do not acknowledge modern day apostles. The office of prophet is simply one that speaks as an oracle of God and God still speaks through people today. When God's spirit bears witness to our own spirit, it can no longer be denied, it is as our own heart and soul with every breath we take. Since we are trying to come to an understanding through consensus and reason as well as revelation, it does not sound reasonable to me that the Christian church still have prophets and apostles and Islam would no longer have them. The only explanation that I can see is that Islam is still under the Mosaic law and have no access to revelation and the prophetic witness until they can fulfill the law by entering into the grace that has been administered by God already through the atonement. Of course that could only be from my perspective through experiential knowledge, your insight into that would be appreciated. For us, it is not enough to believe in Jesus, a conversion is necessary through the spirit of God where repentance and a changed life is apparent. The laying on of hands and the transference of anointing is a foundational doctrine for us.
The "remnant" is generally referred to as the portion of Israel that will return to their homeland. This is considered as fulfilled in 1948 when the nation of Israel was re-established. There is more to it however in that "Israel" includes twelve tribes, the Jews are among the tribe of Judah, includes the tribe of Benjamin and you could include the Levites in there but the rest of Israel was dispersed among the Gentiles and know as the ten lost tribes. The Christian Church has been interpreted to fulfill many of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the restoration of all things and the remnant that will return from captivity, we are warned to get out of spiritual Babylon. The remnant are a people, not a specific person. Your mention of the Hujjah fascinates me. I have for some time been interested in the last Imam that will come, speak not only for the nation of Islam but Israel (completed Israel) and fulfill the role of the Elijah to come and restore all things.
The name Mary and Miriam are the same but different pronunciations separated by many centuries. Miriam is the sister of Aaron and Moses, Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the name of several women in the gospels.
Now I have a question for you. Jesus was born of a virgin without an earthly father. If God was not His father, who was?
Also, we are discussing the role of women in Islam, do you have anything you could contribute to that?
Jay
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Hello Jake,
I think that we all agree that all three of the religions believe in the
same one creator of all creation; We just call him by different names. It
was explained to me that the Arabic word "Allah" is a compound of two words,
"Al" and "Lah". "Al" means "The", and "Lah" means "Worshiped"; and the
Arabic grammar implies that there is only one "Worshiped" in existence.
As far as your question of who the father of Jesus (PBUH) is, lets discuss
that after we have decided who the parents of Adam (PBUH) were. Or, for that
matter; Where all creation came from? Glorified be the creator of all
creation. The concepts and rules of biology are only there for us; God
didn't have to make it that way, He could have made it any which way he
chose to. When things deviate from our understanding of the laws of nature,
physics, etc, we call it a miracle; These mercies have happened at other
times in history too. The parting of the red sea for Moses and his people,
for example.
But I will offer the following Koran verses for pondering in the mean time:
>From Sura Maryam [Mary] 19.16 - 19.38
Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."
So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being' " At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms).
They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! "Oh sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest!
- End Koran quotation.
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Hi, Thanks for the info. I think that you are using the same version of the Koran that I am. It is also with commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. As to Adam, he was created, not born like Jesus.
One question that was brought up that I thought I would run by you is concerning killing unbelievers. In Sura 4:89, renegades are mentioned. Now renegades could be interpreted as anyone that does not agree with every tenet of Islam, or of the traditions or of those that have defected. It says to "seize them and slay then, wherever ye find them." Is this used by Muslims as justification for killing Christians? It also mentions clear authority to kill anyone that seems to be gaining simple confidence with Muslims without the guarantees of peace. To a peaceful people like us, this sounds like justification for indiscriminate murder. Do you agree with Mohammed's teaching on this?
Also in Sura 2:91 is mentioned to slay those that fight against you. This also seems to be used as justification for killing innocent Christians in Indonesia and United States citizens because they are somehow guilty of fighting Islam as unbelievers. I was wondering for what reasons that this is justified? I have never read the Hadith, only heard of things in it. Is the Hadith where Muslims get the justification for killing innocent Christians? Are all Christians deserving of death by Muslims?
Sura 3:182 mentions that God does not harm those that serve Him. Do you believe that He allows Christians to die at the hand of Moslems because they do not serve God?
I know that I must be putting you on the spot here and that you many not be of these radical factions, but this is on the minds of Christians right now because of current events with the terrorists. Jesus of course tells us to turn the other cheek, making Christians easy targets to murderers. He also told us that many will be killing us thinking that they are doing God a favor, so it is really no surprise yet there are still many of us that are able to love our enemies and reach out to them.
Thanks for answering these questions, there needs to be more dialogue like this between groups. I am praying that there can be love and peace between us.
Hoping that this continues.
Jay, not Jake
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>[Jay wrote:]
Jay, even rain is a creation, its just that we know how it works.
>
Generally, there is no warrant in Islam to kill Christians where you find them. If fact, there were cases where the Prophet specifically told his army of men not to attack the Christians towns that they will pass while on an expedition.
One of the things that is very important to understand about the Quran is that much of it was revealed in parallel with actual happenings at the time. The events and the verses go hand in hand and you have to understand a little bit of history in order to get the true meaning of the verses. In other words, there was often a context under which verses of the Quran were revealed and you have to know the context. The context then serves as an example, very much like examples in student's science books or math books, so that we understand the commandments better. Also, you should make sure that you are not pulling one verse out from a group of verses that go together. The particular verse you mentioned, 4:89, is such a verse. 4:89 is part of a group of verses that go together and there is some history behind them. Let me just include the three verses here so that we are on the same page: (actually 4:91 seems also to be a part of the group)
[4:88] What has happened to you (that) ye are two parties about hypocrites? Verily, God hath reversed them for what they have earned; Intend ye to guide those whom God has forsaken to stray? For those whom God hath forsaken to stray, never shall thou find a way.
[4:89] They long that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, so that ye may be (all) alike, therefore take not friends from among them until they migrate in God's way; But if they turn back, then seize them wherever ye find them, and take none of them as friends, and as helpers.
[4:90] Except those that reach a people between whom and you is a covenant (of peace) or who come unto you, (with) their hearts restraining them from fighting you; or fighting their own people; and if God had pleased , He would have given them power over you, so certainly they would have fought you; therefore, if they withdraw from you and do not fight you, and surrender, then God hath made no way for you (to fight) against them.
First of all, these verses are not referring to Christians (or Jews), but rather to the idol worshipers that lived in Mecca and Medina at the time of the Prophet. While the Prophet was living in Medina, there were some people who pretended to be on his side while they were in His company but reverted to the enemy while they were with them; To the extent of joining the enemy in fighting against the believers. People such as these are referred to as "the hypocrites" and, in Islam, are considered to be much more dangerous than the open enemy because of their conspiracies and treason (what is the penalty in US for treason?). A party of the hypocrites, with a false excuse of the unsuitability of the climate of Medina, sought permission of the Holy Prophet and went out of Medina and started living in the Sahara outside the town and joined the infidels at Mecca, who were at war with the Prophet. But some of the Muslims at Medina still differed about how to deal with these hypocrites; Verse 4:88 refers to these differing Muslims; 4:89 refers to the hypocrites. 4:90 says that if they are sincere in not fighting against you then you have no warrant against them.
People who take verses of the Quran out of context and don't understand Islamic history are the ones that get misguided. Some of these then really get messed-up and think that they have a warrant from God to kill innocent people.
>[Jay also wrote:]
>[Jay also wrote:]
Two things: One, you ask this question not knowing what Mohammad's (PBUH) teachings are so I don't know what in particular you are asking about. The implication, I think, is that Mohammad (PBUH) preached the free killing of non-believers, which is not true. Furthermore, the Quran supercedes any Hadith and if a Hadith contradicts the Quran its authenticity is automatically rejected. Second point: Consider what would be your response regarding Jesus' (PBUH) teachings on any particular matter: Would you feel at liberty to judge His teachings. Remember, we Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet of God Himself and if Jesus told me that I should from now on walk on my hands and no longer on my feet, I would not feel at liberty to judge weather I agree with him or not. Question only is, what was actually preached and what is either fabricated or misconstrued over time.
>[Jay also wrote:]
You may have misquoted the verse number above and I couldn't find it, but in any event; Islam preaches self defense. To fight against people who make war against you. The innocent people in the trade towers do Not fall into this category. Islam does Not allow the taking of innocent life under any circumstance. There were thousands of innocent people killed in the towers; Not one can be justified. Jay, there is nothing in Islam that says that Muslims are free to kill those that are not Muslims. The distorted mindset of the perpetrators of the attacks on the trade towers is the result of many political complexities mixed in with a distorted view of Islam. Please remember, Muslims in general do Not justify the killing of innocent Christians or innocent anybodies. And self defense is prescribed regardless of weather the attacker is Christian or otherwise.
>[Jay also wrote:]
Again, this is a fragment from a verse taken from a group of verses and your derived meaning is incorrect. The Quran, here, is talking about the people who used to greedily hold on to gifts/bounties from Allah (God) and say that Allah is poor and they are rich and they slew the Prophets of God wrongfully. The warnings are about he wrath of God, perhaps in the hereafter, not that the Muslims are given a warrant to punish them. The phrase "God does not harm those that serve Him" is both a justification for the coming punishment and a testimony to the fairness and justice of God.
>[Jay also wrote:]
It is very understandable that these issues are on the minds of our Christian neighbors; They are very much on our minds also. The 9/11 events have had a major impact on our lives. I consider the events to be a major setback to the Muslims. In a few minutes a few misguided people have totally destroyed the image of Islam in the eyes of the world and we Muslims must now rebuild that image and trust. Some of us living in these parts of the world feel at blame for not having educated our Christian neighbors and associates about Islam from long ago. Now the only view of Islam we see is the one on TV as displayed by the Taleban and Al Qaida.
The message I would like to convey to the Christians of this country is this:
I sincerely hope that you were not among those affected personally by the recent tragedies on the East coast. I would like to convey to you all that this sort of thing is definitely not encouraged or condoned by Islam and is in fact prohibited and is considered a horrendous crime. Although Islam preaches self defense, the taking of one innocent life is considered equal to destroying all of humanity and helping one sole in need is considered equal to helping all of humanity. Muslims all over the world are deeply saddened by the loss of innocent lives resulting from this display of barbaric violence, and we offer our heartfelt condolences to all those who will no longer see their loved ones come home. We pray to the Almighty for a speedy recovery of those who have been injured--- physically and emotionally---as a result of these senseless and uncondoneable acts of terror. We support the bringing to justice of those that committed these crimes. The people who committed these crimes had a very distorted view of Islam not accepted by the vast majority of Muslims all over the world. Let not the acts of a few misguided people be used to judge the whole lot. I hope that we as a nation will consider and ponder whether US foreign policy energizes and excites the misguided but oppressed people in other countries to commit such wrongful acts. And if so, then how can we change things for the better. Remember that without justice, there can be no peace.
Peace and Justice to all.
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You have my heart, and my utmost respect. I do believe that there is more to this dialogue, not just between the two of us but in the respective faiths that we both share here. On another list, we are discussing the perfect law of liberty and it is my prayer that all of the book will enter into it.
Your mention that there are misled Muslims is what I too have been saying to my Christian friends, there are those of the faith and there are those that abuse the faith. The same can be said of Christians. Nazis, Imperialists, or those that rape and kill and plunder or crusaders in the name of Christ have been Christians by name only. Christians are not born in the flesh at birth, they are born in the spirit at conversion and that brings us an indescribable peace. There is no such thing as a Christian nation outside of the kingdom of God, it is spiritual through and through and a heavenly calling, not an earthly one.
I am about to send the next edition of my newsletter to the latter rain list and this dialogue will accompany it. I would like to first ask your permission to put your name to it. I can make it anonymous if you like or leave it as it is. Your choice. Either way, it is a fitting ending to this dialogue that we have been having as a group and your address to Christians in general is important to share. I want to thank you and hope that we can still communicate.
Yours in Jesus,
Jay
Jay I certainly don't have all the answers! And I acknowledge that God loves Christians, sinners, Muslim, men, women and so on of humanity. Or we wouldn't have the well known verse of John 3:16.
But consider John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." And consider this from John 10:1, "VERILY, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." Or John 15:1 & 2, "I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
Now I mention these Scriptures not to persecute those that don't believe the same way I do, but to point out there is only one criteria to Salvation and to the Father. It is the Risen Jesus Christ the Son of God. Any diverging justification is seems to be irrelevant? But shame to Christians that use violence and degradation to force others to believe their way. If Jesus was that way He would not have died on the cross for us to reach the Father. He would have just let us be slaughtered in our sin.
It just seems that you were defending a religion (Islam) by pointing some sort of fine points that refines a less radical stance than extremist in their religion. By even comparing the radical or wrong paths that man has done in the name of Jesus makes Christianity and our Lord to Islam and Allah. Jesus died to give humanity the option to reject a fallen life. But please don't put fallen choices by those that call themselves Christians on the same page as Jesus or by religions that don't acknowledge that Jesus is the only way to the Father: That is Redemption.
Ok. So I've done my spouting. And I assure you I don't have answers, but I can assure you that if one follows the example and God inspired Words of the New Testament things would fall into place in the long run even it culminates at the end of the age.
John Houk
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Hi John,
Thanks for this response, it is just what I am looking for in this dialogue this time. I agree with you completely that it is Jesus that is the way the truth and the life and you have put shame where shame should be. He has however sent certain people to certain other people from time to time to bring His message of the way, truth and life. However imperfect the message is from you or me or Luther or Wesley or for that matter of Mohammed, God loves everyone the same and we are all imperfect in need of redemption. And I can certainly agree with you that the inspired word must be followed in order to get things to fall into place.
But the topic in this series is reaching out to Islam. I don't have the answers here either but condemning a religion is not the answer or we would have to clean up our own house first, judgment begins with us. The fact is that true Muslims believe in the gospel and they believe in Jesus. That means that the ones that kill those who believe in Jesus and the gospel in the name of Allah are not true adherents of their own faith, this is a false Islam that follows a lie.
Generally when Islamic teachers preach against the Bible, they will preach against the theology of Paul. Paul says:
"Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise... 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."
Now we all know that we are speaking of Ishmael as the son of the bondwoman and how much controversy this must generate without knowing who said these words about casting out Hagar and her son. I have heard others suggest that this means that the descendants of Ismael can never come under the promise because God said so but that is not the case. The fact is that God is unwilling that anyone should perish and the seed of Abraham will be a blessing to all families of the earth, Islamic included.
Genesis 21:10 "Wherefore SHE said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."
It was not God who said it but Sarah because of the jealousy between her and Hagar. This rivalry exists today but the promises of God remain true, Islam cannot contradict it or prove God false, neither can we. The fact is that it was Sarah that suggested that Ishmael be born to fulfill the promise in the first place. It was not Hagar's fault and certainly not Ishmael's. Can anyone blame the descendants upon the accident of birth? I for one will not, I will bring them the truth just as myself, a Gentile born outside the promise had to hear to partake of the promise which is ultimately eternal life.
The theology of Paul rests squarely upon the cross. The wisdom of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing but that is a free choice all have to make. It is a tragic fact that the bulk of the world's population will be going to hell, religious and non religious. Should that concern us? You bet it should. I see only a remnant of Messianic Muslims that can accept truth as it is, not just what they want it to be and the same goes with Christians and Jews. That means nothing to those who do not know the truth but to you and I, it should motivate us to love them regardless and bring them the truth regardless. Would you agree?
Jay
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I agree 100% that is God's will that all should be saved. That is why His Son paid the redemption price. I am just thinking - and I know it might just be mincing words, because I don't want to sound arrogant or filled with spiritual pride - that we should reach out to the humanity or cultures rather than their belief system. Such as Islam, Buddhism, atheism, or so on. The earthly ministry of Jesus was definitely controversial to His culture or the threat of mob stoning wouldn't have occurred much less the eventual Crucifixion. I just don't think using another religion's scripture or belief system no matter how similar it might be to God's inspired Word is the way. It sounds like diluting the gospel.
Didn't Elijah and Elisha have to deal with a diluted religious system in the Northern Kingdom of Israel? Such as the golden calf worship and baalism? Did they excuse these practices to bring the people back to the true God? I don't know? It just seems there is another way?
John
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Yes John but there is no other way than the witness of Jesus. I appreciate your humility here so let's see if we can come to agreement. We must bring them the message of the cross regardless of their belief system. Light is what will dispel the darkness. The point that I am trying to make is that they are not antagonistic to Jesus, their quarrel is with Christians, so we need to change first. Once they get filled with the Holy Spirit, He does the teaching but they have not seen enough genuine Christianity to convince them of our message. We need points of contact that will produce a spiritual response. Are you saying that we need to condemn their whole belief system to do that? Nominal Christians who have converted to Islam have been impressed by a prayer life they never had before, they learn to submit to God rather than the false authority of pastors and teacher who want us to submit to them. It is easy for you and I to see the difference in genuine Christianity but the church has failed many people miserably, Islam became strongest where Christianity became weakest. Now when we become the people within a people that can stand together in unity and holiness, things will change but we must do that first and do it in love or God will not use us in revival and harvest, He will use others.
I was wondering where you saw where I was excusing their practices. What am I missing there? I really do want to get it right.
Jay
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Hi Jay,
Again I'm no expert on Islam, yet it seems they believe in a Jesus that is simply a man with a calling to be a prophet and that Jesus definitely is not the Son of God? It seems Muslims are antagonistic to the Jesus that is the Son of God one person of the Trinity so also is God Himself. I've never seen the Holy Spirit (Which I view also as the imparted by the Father and the Son) as so Machiavellian as that the ends justify the means. Now I'm not saying to condemn any belief system or people in general. That was not the way of Jesus. But I don't think the message of Jesus should be diluted to find common ground either. I'm off base thinking that way?
As to submitting to imperfect pastors and teachers, certain that the Islamic clergy (mullahs or whatever) have their imperfect human leaders as well. It is the way of human nature until the full redemption with Christ at the head in the millennium and culminating in the new Heaven and the new Earth and the new Jerusalem. It seems from scripture that this is the only time humanity will be totally free from selfish designs - no matter the belief system.
I'm embarrassed that my prayer life is not as deep as it should be, but on the other hand I have being feeling the urgency to draw nearer to God more than ever lately. If converted Muslims (from Christianity) are feeling a deeper prayer life, it is probably a commitment they are making that they failed to do under Christ. It is amazing what committed choices will do to transform one spiritually. That is where I am heading, yet only in Christ.
I totally agree with you that love, holiness, and unity is the only way that Christ has to the Father. I think this commitment by individuals will be a witness to humankind, whether Christian, Islam or whatever belief system. When Christians shrug personal agendas and put Christ first I think we will see a new wave of the Spirit of God to translate Believers in Christ into the Kingdom of His dear Son.
As to excusing Islamic practices. I don't remember what I read to make that accusation. So if was grabbing straws or offended you Jay, I humbly apologize. Oops. :-)
Trust me you probably it have more right than I.
John
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We almost have it here John. You are perfectly right about what Moslems believe as to the person of Jesus. I am going to leave it at that on this next edition, I have been in dialogue with a Muslim on certain questions. Thanks so much for the input, it was really good.
Jay
The Koran speaks 'out of two sides' of its mouth so to speak. On the one hand it speaks highly of Yeshua and Christians, but on the other it says outright to kill them if they do not convert to Islam. How can this be? I read a post from a brother who was raised Islam, he said it literally took him 15 years of walking in the word and seeking the Spirit to get over the habit/iniquity of lying. Islam by its very nature is a religion of deception to meet its own end. It teaches to befriend the enemy and then when you come to a place of power, or authority, or any place where you can fulfill Islam to strike. The prophet (Mohammed) I believe is pointed to in scripture... and is translated as a 'mad man.' I will try and find the chapter and verse... It is an interesting read.
As for the women of Islam, I agree... yet as human nature goes I see two directions. One (as we see on the boob tube) to go the way of this present world in usurping of authority and rebellion of true purpose. The other, I hope and pray a realization and conversion of truth in Messiah!
blessings Jay.. Yeshua Messiah be with you and yours.....
laz
I believe Paul addresses this subject about women submitting to their husbands... If we obey the gospel, the Muslim men should be very happy to hear that we are teaching that their wives submit to their husbands as unto the Lord.
It is the real life submission and Christ likeness, which will win the men over. As westerners, we have lost the true power of submission, buying into the dominance paradigm.
The flesh loves to dominate, but true spiritual submission in Yeshua will result in the overcoming of evil by doing good.
Muslim women can love their own husbands, love their own children and be keepers at home as true believing women should do. It will be easier for Muslim women to obey these commands than it is for us in the West. Muslim women will find comfort in knowing that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are in them and empowering them to love their husbands and children. They will have joyful fellowship with other former Muslim women who love and serve Yeshua. They will be the blessed of the blessed. No Muslim man should ever regret having a believing wife who worships Yeshua, this woman will be the virtuous wife who blesses each day and serves them as if they were Yeshua himself. It is only when we try to overlay western customs and teach churchianity and americanism to the Muslims that we come into trouble.
Muslims want spiritual power, they want to be healed, they want forgiveness of their sins, they want to know Yahweh. They have been in the dark as to Yahweh's true nature, but when the good news comes, many will receive Him through Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
These are my thoughts at the present time,
GF
Scriptures referenced:
Eph.5
Col.3
Tit.2
1Pet.3
A real thinker, this one!
the one verse that comes to mind is seek ye the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
i also am reminded of the jewish prison seminar we did, it ran for two days, and while we attended our hearts were broken many times, for the suffering of God's people, and for the children who never found their parents, and me, mostly for how cruel and evil people, with or without satan, could be.
we were given jewish names to write to, the letters were translated into hebrew yiddish russian etc, and sent, my pen pal eventually died, but he died knowing that i loved him and that Jesus loved him, but our first contacts were strictly from the old testament, since none of them believed in the returned messiah, they were still waiting for Him to be born, or as some believed, a man to simply appear.
Some religions that differ from my beliefs remind me of the Jewish people, they have a faith in a God, but have missed the promise of salvation because it doesn't meet their expectations or more because the enemy has deceived them and they cannot find the truth for they are confounded in heart and spirit
less is me who judges those who are blind, for Jesus does come as a sinner, a lost one, and i must show Him my Father, wherein He will show me His Heart.
any person, irrelevant of colour culture race faith etc, (including wiccans) has my help given, and in the creation of a friendship God will show me how to show them His Son
no arguments, no ifs, no buts
this includes the people of the Islamic faith
if our Gentle Father can find His truth in their hearts, just one seed, they can find His truth, and put away all and anything, to accept The Truth, The Lord Jesus Christ, who is the God head, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, all happily rolled into one.
they are then happy and able to repent of past sin, and i defy anyone to say God will not forgive.
If He forgave me my past iniquities, He will forgive them, in whom He loves their defense of love and willingness to fight to the death for their truths...how much more so, with Jesus as their leader?
Teresa Tickner
You wrote:
JOHN 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth
LUKE 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
JUDE 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
The truth is found in the Bible, not in the Koran. The Koran can contain some truth, but it is not the Truth. The Bible is Truth. I like better to be called a fundamentalist then having a progressive revelation. The time is short; we have to be bold.
On a different subject, I discovered what is the image of the Beast:
REVELATION 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
That image is nothing else then the television. It can talk, and is animated. The television presents the view of the world. It corrupts moral values. It will bring many people to hell.
REVELATION 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
I think that the Holly Spirit has already talked to many Christian to get rid of their televisions. Many did, but after a while they have broth back a television in their house. Now the Holly Spirit speaks less to them about that.
Your brother in Christ, Charles.
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Appreciate that Charles but the same thing can be said about all printed and visual material, including the internet.
Thanks,
Jay
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Re: The Truth
Dear Jay. I do not want to do the job of the Holy Spirit. What I am saying is this: the Holy Spirit has spoken to many Christians to get rid of their televisions and they did not obey the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit tells us to get rid of the Internet then we should get rid of it. On my behalf I did not get a message to get rid of Internet. I did for the television, and I got rid of it and never did have an other television. I did the same thing for films. Many of my friends, the Holy Spirit (not me) told them to get rid of the television and they did not do it. One of my friends told me that all his televisions brake in his house because of an electrical problem. He told me that the Lord got rid of his televisions. A few months later he had 2 other televisions. If you want to know how I got those messages for myself how the Lord told me to get rid of television, send me an e-mail.
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Hi again Charles,
I really hate to disagree with you like this but you did not say that the Holy Spirit can and does speak to people to get rid of their televisions, of which we could agree. You said that the television was the image of the beast. Do you really want me to pass this off to the latter rain list as "truth"?
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Hello Jay.
Yes you have understood me correctly. The television is the image of the beast and not the mark of the beast. The beast is a worldwide kingdom whose power is from the Dragon.
REVELATION 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
REVELATION 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Good morning,
A note about Moslemism and women. In 1628 Jon Amos Comenius wrote a treatise on "teaching". It is called Janua Linguarum. It was immediately translated by the Moslems into Arabic, Turkish, Persian, and Mongolian. The effect of the Moravian Revival was impacting the world. Part of that revival was the "first" rights of women and children to an education. Mohammed was a victorious warrior after his own conquests with aim at a chunk of the world. Remember, at this time, the Lutherans were at war with the Catholics etc. Another note, the Lord told Abraham He would bless the seed of Ishmael. The point here is God was allowing an opportunist to "take" the seeds of what was revival and implant those seeds into a "carnal" religious continuation of the seed of Ismael. While the Moravian move of God was growing the Moslems were carefully following that move, taking pieces of it that moved the hearts of many, looking for opportunity. Similar to what is occurring now. However, prophetically speaking, those "seeds" will bear fruit as the Moravians prayed and gave testimony to this prophetic word that burned in their hearts years ago (300-400 years ago). What might happen? Moslems coming to the true faith as the seeds of error also bear fruit. Also, how powerful, that a prophetic word hundreds of years ago that drove those that followed (Moravians) it to believe that the laying down of their lives at the time would sprout and bless and benefit a revival in the future!
God bless-it isn't over til the Moslems sing Amazing Grace
Larry Sloma
January 23, 2002
In closing out our present topic, Islam has been a personal issue, I have always thought of Ishmael and Isaac as brothers that should be unified in love and brotherhood but it is not possible to justify many things that misled people do in the name of their God.
"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
"Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
"Every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe."
>
>Hi, Thanks for the info. I think that you are using the same version of the
>Koran that I am. It is also with commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. As to
>Adam, he was created, not born like Jesus.
>One question that was brought up that I thought I would run by you is
>concerning killing unbelievers. In Sura 4:89, renegades are mentioned.
>Now renegades could be interpreted as anyone that does not agree with
>every tenet of Islam, or of the traditions or of those that have
>defected. It says to "seize them and slay then, wherever ye find them."
>Is this used by Muslims as justification for killing Christians?
>It also
>mentions clear authority to kill anyone that seems to be gaining simple
>confidence with Muslims without the guarantees of peace. To a peaceful
>people like us, this sounds like justification for indiscriminate
>murder.
Jay, I would like to differ on your comment about being the peaceful people. Indeed, it was the Christians of Serbia that raped upwards of 20,000 Muslim women while those in power watched; It was the Christians of US that dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan; It was the Christians of Germany that exterminated six million Jews; It is the Christians of US and UK that feel that the price of a half a million children (yes, 500,000 children) who have died so far in Iraq because of the sanctions is "worth it" and continue to impose such unbelievable sanctions on these fellow human beings that it turns the stomach of the peaceful people. Perhaps when you say "turn the other cheek" you really mean "look the other way".
> Do you agree with Mohammed's teaching on this?
>Also in Sura 2:91 is mentioned to slay those that fight against you.
>This also seems to be used as justification for killing innocent
>Christians in Indonesia and United States citizens because they are
>somehow guilty of fighting Islam as unbelievers. I was wondering for
>what reasons that this is justified? I have never read the Hadith, only
>heard of things in it. Is is the Hadith where Muslims get the
>justification for killing innocent Christians? Are all Christians
>deserving of death by Muslims?
>Sura 3:182 mentions that God does not harm those that serve Him. Do you
>believe that He allows Christians to die at the hand of Moslems because
>they do not serve God?
>I know that I must be putting you on the spot here and that you many not
>be of these radical factions, but this is on the minds of Christians
>right now because of current events with the terrorists. Jesus of course
>tells us to turn the other cheek, making Christians easy targets to
>murderers. He also told us that many will be killing us thinking that
>they are doing God a favor, so it is really no surprise yet there are
>still many of us that are able to love our enemies and reach out to
>them.
I Cor. 7
[13] And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
[14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
[16] For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
[18] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
[1] But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
[2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
[3] The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
[4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[5] To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
[5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son..." John 3:16!
Through progressive revelation, most Christians have given women more freedom than the first century cultural traditions have allowed for, so should Islam.
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