Moving On - The Perfect is yet to Come
Moving On
As to the perfect has come, all those that responded agree that this is
not the completion of the New Testament as taught by a greater part of
the church but something in the last days and spritual gifts are alive
and well as evidenced in our own lives. More responses to that are
toward the bottom. Remember, I cannot print everything, there's too
much.
As to the laying on of hands, we agree that it is in power and that we
should be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit before we lay hands on
anyone, more below. Also we should at least agree that just as God's
power is transmitted that it is also possible for the evil influence to
be transmitted in reverse through the laying on of hands. We did not all
agree on that but I think that we should be open to it. It has never
happened to me in that way and not to some others but we have heard
instances where it did happen and it happened in the gospels. We also
agree that a degree of maturity should be evident before we lay hands on
others, as an elder for example and not as a novice. It was also
mentioned that our faith should be radical and not conservative. As to
laying on suddenly, I do not believe that the context warrants
impartation but rather in violence but it doesn't matter. The passage in
Greek can mean either way and I think that it could be true either way.
It is not a point of contention and we do not have to agree on points
that do not matter.
Unless there is more discussion, we can close these issues and get on to
the next. There were a few more foundational items that Paul discussed,
repentance and faith for example, which should need no discussion. The
last one I would like to discuss is that of the resurrection of the
dead. Now we all believe in a resurrection but what I want to discuss is
the timing. There are more than one resurrection, the catching away of
the saints follow a resurrection and there is a resurrection following
that at some point. A resurrection before and after the millenium? This
may take some study, not just opinion. Since these things have to do
with the last days, it is important that the correct interpretations are
taught. I have not worked it all out and I have to look back on former
ways of thinking as being wrong on some points, even on my web page. How
many resurrections are there? How does this contrast with those that are
translated in a "twinkling of an eye? What about the resurrection to
judgment? Where does the judgment come in if those who are in Jesus are
not judged and those that are not have been judged already? Certainly
some points to ponder, I hope we can have as much fun with it as we have
already. The most recurring comment to me from you is how much you are
enjoying all this. Praise God.
Jay.
On laying on of hands:
I have been on both ends of very powerful and anointed times of prayer
through the laying on of hands - He is real and his power is definitely
for today and ON THE INCREASE! He is raising up a faithful remnant in
these last days and I praise Him that I can be a part of what He is
doing.
With Christian Love,
Brian Tanguay
I tend to agree that it is not wise to "lay on hands suddenly". There
are two reasons I say this. One situation that I think that this
scripture is addressing is the ordination of elders. It is quite
possible that when thrusting someone into the place of spiritual
leadership, or when endorsing that commissioning, someone might
actually become a partaker of that elder's
sins. The reason being that a person placed in that kind of a role when
too immature for the responsibility will no doubt cause grievous
problems within a church.
As to the issue of a
person recieving an unclean spirit or becoming influenced by an unclean
spirit through the laying on of hands, I have never seen that happen in
my experience, however I can see how that it could. Transference is a
serious problem, Witchcraft functions on that principle just as the
laying on of hands functions under the principle of transferance.... It
is not to be taken lightly, either the ordination of eldership, or the
laying on of hands. Remember the sons of Sceva, when they tried to cast
out the demon, in the name of Jesus, "whom Paul preached"..... Never set
about to minister especially in the role of laying on of hands or in the
ministry of deliverance casually and without the
mind of God, and definitely know who is laying hands on you.
Transferance is impartation and appropriation.... it is very easy to get
caught up in the same sin that you are "trying" to free that person
from... When God empowers us to be of some use to minister to some one,
that is one thing, when we set about to do something ourselves that is
another thing alltogether.
Bordtodis
Dear Jay,
I believe Tina made an important point in the last forward you sent
out about needing the
Holy Spirit's leading to pray for someone otherwise the spirit that is
on them can jump on
you. Those are almost the exact words that Rick Joyner used in
describing what happened
to Bob Jones. (I'm assuming you know these men of God) Apparently, Bob
Jones went to
pray for someone without the Holy Spirit's leading and as a result a
spirit of lust jumped on
him which eventually led to incidents of sexual misconduct. Rick Joyner
and another minister
Mahesh Chavda prayed for Bob Jones and cast that spirit off him..... I
believe there are important lessons to be learnt through this not
the least of which is - how much we need the body of Christ - not only
can we not make it
without one another we will never be complete without one another.
Blessings to you...
Kathleen
On the perfect has come:
You are right Bro. Jay that the churches today are divided in this
issue. I was born again thru
an Evangelical Pastor who believe that tongues and miracles are not for
today also since the
Holy Bible is complete. But the word perfection that is mention in
1cor.13:10, I believe that the perfection comes when Christ returns and
the imperfect disappears. Right now we are living in the dispensation of
Grace wherein thru the power of the Holy Spirit, so therefore the gifts
of the Holy Spirit is still available today.
Ezer
Subject: the perfect
To understand the root of this doctrine (heresy) of the written word
replacing the gifts of the Spirit we must understand how this teaching
developed. For the first few centuries after Christ was taken to heaven
the church continued to manifest supernatural gifts including tongues,
healing, prophecy and miracles. As the church became accepted by the
government and became the state religion it began to compromise. Along
with the compromises came a loss of spiritual power as expressed in the
gifts. There were, of course, exceptions such as St. Francis who
manifested most of the gifts during his lifetime, but this was rare.
As the gifts disappeared it became necessary to explain why the church
had lost much of its power. At the same time that the gifts were
declining the canon of scripture was in the process of being
recognized. The last book to be accepted was Revelation. Upon
completion of the canon a small group of self appointed bishops, headed
by the "Holy See", arose to claim a special
rulership over the church and claiming to be the sole interpreters of
holy writ.
Thus, sadly, the written word of God was made unavailable to the
unlearned and the gifts were said to be unnecessary. When the
reformation began, much of the heresy of the ecclesiastical church was
taken over into the protestant churches and has been perpetuated since,
only to be restored to portions of the church in the ninetieth and
twentieth centuries.
Donald E. Brown
On doctrine:
I believe that if 5 people were going to minister to one person and
those 5 were apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher, they
would each deal with that person in a different
way..... I believe that now, more than ever, we must BE the love of God
and quit worrying so much about doctrine and if we are doing it right or
not.
Cathy Grant
January 3, 2000
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