The Lukewarm Church
Barriers to unity come from those that seem to have it all and don't need the rest. Self righteous in their own perceived spirituality, they think that they are something but add nothing so go off on their own apart from us. Remember the Laodicean Church in Revelation who are rich and have need of nothing? This church is alive and well today, you only need to look around you. Jesus will love us whether we are hot or cold. Many churches are cold as far as the Holy Spirit is concerned. They might not have correct doctrine or charismatic presence but even those that dwell among satan's seat have held the faith and are included among God's people. The weak are much more attractive to Jesus than those who think that they are strong. Love covers a multitude of sins. Those on the hot side of the church have radical faith, walking in the spirit has led them to love their weaker brothers and embrace them in spite of their faults.
The lukewarm church will not exhibit the love necessary to bring about the unity that Jesus has prayed for. Their compassion is conservative, their faith and love is conservative, their giving and charity is conservative. It is if they believe that if God gives us our graces liberally and asks us to do the same, He must be a false god. Wavering between two opinions, the lukewarm church will choose prosperity as if mammon is righteousness and godliness is gain. Family issues will take precedence over social issues, the local church will override the family of man and unity would be compromise with the "cold" side of Christianity. This apostate church of division is not part of the unity to come in these last days, they will be spewed out of the mouth of God and no longer be part of the body.
God, deliver us from the luke-warm church and the contentious spirit. Draw us into your secret place and show us how to bring others in.
My responses this time are below as individual comments.
Jay
Hi Jay,
Wow!!! Wow! What an awesome time I had with your teaching and the responses
from your last message concerning Sola Scriptura. I hate to mention names -
maybe you should delete this, but RevDeb's response was truly
thought-provoking and sent me scurrying back to your original teaching, your
current one, and ultimately, of course, to the Bible. What an awesome
exchange of information! This is what prompted me:
(Jay said:)
What a discourse! For here is where the root of the problem with Sola
Scriptura and we, as followers of Christ really lies. What you said, Jay,
was very profound. The facts from John 1:1 and John 1:18 really shed light
and profundity to RevDeb's objection. Now, at the risk of taking your
statement, Jay, about the bible not being God out of context (and I don't
believe that I am) I am able to gather from this exchange that St. John's
description as "the Word" is separate and distinct from what Sola Scriptura
doctrine does. While "the Word" (Jesus) called those things into being that
were not, He does not author any of the scriptures - therefore we cannot say
that the bible or "scriptures" is God. We can agree with St. Paul that the
scriptures are "the inspired word" of God, but not God. I believe that the
"misconception, and misunderstanding" here is on the part of RevDeb. No
harm intended, only love, because she inspired me to dig a little deeper
into things, and this brought me to another revelation concerning the
scriptures...
When Jesus was prompted by the Spirit to go into the desert to be tempted
for forty days, satan came at a time when Jesus was really suffering - near
the end of His journey. Satan came strong, too. He quoted direct scripture
to Jesus the whole time. There was nothing incorrect about what satan
quoted to Jesus. Yet Jesus did not give in to him, and fought him off with
scripture. The question is, why did Jesus not fall for what satan was trying
to do? It is because satan's "intent" was evil - his entire being is evil.
Jesus understood that satan was Sola Scriptura, but He realized that the
thing that makes the scriptures come alive - the very essence of what God
"intends" by His holy word (Spirituality - remember God is a Spirit) was in
evil hands, and therefore not to be adhered to as "Holy".
Thanks, Jay. This revelation of thought is wonderful.
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Concerning the sacrament of marriage - it is unclear to me whether you are
talking about Jesus' marriage to the church, or the union of a man and a
woman. I see them as two totally different things - I'm struggling with the
fact that in order to be married, man's law says that you must have papers
and the whole sha-bang of witnesses and that kind of stuff. This is a whole
different avenue of discussion for me because I'm still one who believes
that it is okay for two people to live together...I guess I've got a long
way to go in my Christian walk, perhaps...
Bill Caraway
--------------------------------------
Jay
Dear Jay,
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Pray your back has healed and that God has knit it back together the way
it was before your fall from the ladder.
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
I wonder if you ever ask questions similar to a topic my girlfriend and I
were discussing the other day. We were sharing how we both have had our
"Joseph" experiences. I wondered if it is important for people to be put
through a season of experiencing some form of tragedy or a situation where
total dependency on God is needed because their lives have shifted from the
reality that they once hoped for into one that seems to be spiraling out of
control? Is this the only way to really grow in the Lord? Is this part of
taking up our cross and following Jesus? Is this the only way to see what
we are made up of? Will we complete the course before us with hope, joy and
love if we are not brought to our knees? Or perhaps the truth is that in
this life we all experience serious difficulties but some choose the way of
the world to solve them while others know their only hope is through crying
out and trusting Jesus? Are those who choose to cry out to God and seek Him
with all their heart, are they the ones who never lose the light - whose joy
can't be taken from them - who never stop being amazed there is such an
awesome relationship to be experienced with the living God?
These are the kind of questions I would like to hear answers to. How
have people kept their relationship alive with God? Kept it fresh and real.
Never giving up hope that their is a God and that He loves with a love beyond
our comprehension.
--------------------------------------
Jay
--------------------------------------
May we always hear the still small voice of our God,
Jay,
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
As for the question of sola scriptura, it does contain a certain truth
which is very important to Christians who speak with the authority of the
Holy Spirit. Sola scriptura is at best meant as a negation of those who
would say that their teachings carry the same weight as those of the
apostles, whether they be popes, cult leaders, or stubborn teachers. It is
similar to the political concept of constitutional government, in that an
absolute law limits the authority of those who would abuse it. Of course,
this is not always the case, as Protestants are as prone to stubbornness as
anyone else, but the principle still serves to protect the sheep from false
shepherds who would falsely claim to speak for the Holy Spirit.
--------------------------------------
Jay
--------------------------------------
The negative side of this doctrine can be seen in the unwillingness of
Evangelicals to teach anything not painfully obvious in scripture. The
fullness of truth cannot be found in specific passages of scripture
isolated from the rest of scripture and experience, but can only be found
in the context of the entire truth. The sanctity of unborn life is a
common example, since it rests on a conception of life and humanity
implicit in the teachings of Christ but not blatantly stated in any one
place. The key in seeking wisdom this way is to understand that we can and
probably will also find our own opinions and errors. This is why
interpretation is not a private matter. You cannot say that you certainly
have the truth, and those who object are in error. The key to
understanding is to consider the spirit's revelation to other believers as
well.
Another thought about the Holy Spirit. I believe that if God has a
message meant for someone, the Spirit gives the message to that one first.
Therefore I would qualify any talk of the work of the Spirit with the
statement that we must not accept a teaching or prophetic message the
Spirit has not confirmed in our own hearts. One of the most prevalent
human desires is the desire for a teacher, shepherd, or other authority to
take the place of God. Certainly our brothers and sisters in Christ are
there to guide us, rebuke us, and turn us toward God, but we are not left
blind, since our Shepherd opens the eyes of the blind.
May we grow as branches of the Lord,
Eric
December 6, 2000
"To make the word of God the final authority instead of God Himself is the
same as serving the letter instead of the spirit, it is tantamount to
worshipping the creation instead of the Creator."
(RevDeb said:)
"This statement is totally false, and constitutes a dissection of the Word
which results in the fracturing of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). It is a demonstration of a misconception, and misunderstanding, of what the Word of God really IS."
(Jay said:)
"The Bible is not God, it is the Word of God."Thanks, Bill. We can quote others in the discussion, even correct them but only if done with love. That was my intent, to show that the scriptures have been misinterpreted and there are those that have used them to bring forth misconceptions, misunderstandings and a dissection of the true word of God. Because these traditions are taught from the pulpit and teaching ministries by people that do not know any better, it is not entirely their fault. We all need to grow into maturity. Unity is established through the spirit and progressive revelation and in so doing, brings us to agreement on scripture in the fullness of time. To be true to scripture, many times we must go to the original texts and understand historical context before we can understand and teach others. Many Christians do not take the words of Paul to heart when he asked Timothy to "2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." I have learned that we must humble ourselves to be taught new things because it challenges our former ways of thinking and is a test of whether we can put away our pride enough to accept God's truth without resenting the source.
Paul teaches that the marriage union is to be compared with the relationship of Christ to His church, so speaking of either may be in the same language. The grace that comes through the marriage union is holy and without sin and it is sin that separates us from God. Christian freedom is such that we may enter the HOLY bonds of matrimony and sexual union without shame or guilt. There were only three things that were absolutely forbidden for the Christians: fornication (sexual union outside of marriage), eating the food of the idols (idolatry in general) and eating blood (occult practices and witchcraft). If the marriage union is to be compared to Jesus and the church, we know that Jesus will be wedded to only one wife (church), not to a harlot or a harem. It would follow that true love and holiness would not intentionally make a harlot out of a lover but would follow life-giving grace and truth. Anything else would be disobedience and unfaithfulness.
You always have very controversial yet interesting discussions. Often
though I feel they cover to much ground for me to be able to comprehend what
it is you are specifically asking. I guess I like very detailed questions
that cover one particular situation.I have felt for some time that this group needs a newsgroup where we can discuss many things at once instead of me dominating one issue at a time.
Getting better all the time, Arlette, still wearing a brace. My fingers are still stiff.
This is the wilderness experience, glory to glory, spiritual growth and the sanctification process. Christians go through this as well as the church in general. I believe that the church with all of its disunity and unholy history, self-righteousness, pride and the such have been going through this wilderness and are now just coming out of it to be the Bride that Jesus is coming for. Praise the Lord.
Arlette
What is a sacrament? I believe that the Protestant rejection of
sacraments is primarily a rejection of priesthood. It is often thought
that the sacrament of marriage refers just to the religious ceremony that
is performed at the beginning of a marriage, rather than the lifelong
commitment that follows. The "seven sacraments" of the Catholic Church,
connected to seven rituals performed by priests, is misleading because
implicitly restricts the definition of a sacrament. I believe that the
Orthodox Church takes a more inclusive view, maintaining that the true
number of sacraments is not known, and that all of life is potentially
sacramental in some way. Once sacraments are taken apart from incorrect
ecclesiology, I believe that the Protestant rejection of sacraments is
mainly of terminology, since they would accept that certain words and
actions have a real spiritual effect beyond what the natural and social
sciences would predict.. Most conservative Protestants would certainly say
that that marriage is sacred, and is a sign representing a divine reality.
So should the term be used? The word "sacrament" is just a word, and if
other words could convey the same meaning without causing division then we
should do so. Of course, we should be on our guard against diluting the
truth, but insisting on a particular word is divisive.So so true. Insisting on a particular words is divisive, if it is unnecessary. Still, the causes of divisiveness must be exposed and denounced. It is in the nitpicking that legalistic churches have put up as roadblocks so that the unsaved will see the hypocrisy, lack of love and unholy confusion and not come to the Lord. Restricting the number of sacraments is just such a roadblock that sola scriptura has insisted upon. Who gave these people the right to set these laws and limit God's grace anyway? Many of these same churches teach that you cannot fall from grace but I see God's word telling me that if you are justified by the law that you are fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). More and more legalistic requirements to limit the number into heaven, exalting themselves as the true guides and making others just as blind as they are. As to the Catholic Church's teaching on the marriage sacrament, it is God that bestows the grace, the priest only gives his blessing to the union.
I do believe that what you must say here is that scripture "does contain a certain truth
which is very important" and not scripture alone. For you then make the statement "important to Christians who speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit" negating the scripture "alone." We are saying the same thing in essence. The Bible already contains the truth necessary to guard against false teaching and no-one is denying the truth of the Bible here. The Bible speaks of God resisting the proud and giving grace to the humble so we may automatically reject anyone with these wild pretentious claims of equating their own teaching to the level of scripture. There are those that speak with the authority of the Holy Spirit as you have already claimed and there are those that are false, it is the spirit that gives the true believers the discernment to recognize the difference. The final authority resides in the witness of the spirit in the TRUE prophets of the Lord who do in fact speak with that true authority. This is the plain teaching of scripture for those who understand full-gospel teaching. I do think that you have a grasp of this already Eric, because of your next statements. Stay blessed.
Latter Rain Discussion Archives
The Lord has given us the grace to reconcile the children to their Fathers
As One Body
Issue Oriented Discussion Newsletter
Index | Search This Site | Aristide.Org | The Latter Rain | Babylon the Great | The Kingdom | The Nicolaitans | Jezebel
The Baptism With the Holy Ghost | The Grand Delusion | World Trade Org | Liberation Theology | Jay Atkinson | Alphabetical Index