Calvinism is OK until it gets stupid: Part II
Something wonderful happens when we finally break away from Puritan ignorance, this truth sets us free. Christian freedom arrives when we come to the cross, before that, we are all slaves to our own desires. God draws us to the cross and Jesus is there. He comes off of that cross and knocks at the door of our heart. Once there, we have to make a choice. Without faith it is impossible to please God so the choice made will be in faith or no faith. The simple answer is of faith in the redemptive work of the cross and we have the promise of God that he will give us that gift of faith if we ask Him for it. What choice do we make? It only takes that mustard grain of affirmative action and as soon as we take the first step we enter into eternity and know God. More importantly, He now knows us.
Puritans need to understand Christian freedom too. The way of love is in choosing the holiness of God's power to love something other than ourselves. God has given us the grace to operate under His power. Repentance draws us near to God because it leaves us with a clean heart that is acceptable to God for service. Calvinism is only a state of mind and not a particular denomination but false prophets will try to suppress the truths of the holiness doctrine every time. Without a responsibility of love and humility that is needed to become the Bride of Christ, the remnant seed will not grow; demon forces want to kill the manchild. We not only leave it up to God's will, we become God's will and turn the world right side up in the name of Jesus.
Elijah put the false prophets to shame and asked the people to make a choice. If you do not want to be consumed, you must choose to serve the Lord. The heirs and servants of Calvinism may not be worshipping Baal but they do eat at the tables of Jezebel and that's a fact. If you want to cross the Jordan then choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served or the Lord God. For me and my house, I choose Jesus.
Jay
Jay,
I have a problem with the idea of Calvinism being alright in any way. If you can show me in scripture where it is sound to believe in predestination, I will accept it. But, considering Jesus died on the cross in order for ALL to have life and to have life more abundantly, I don't quite think you will find anything. John Calvin, in my opinion, was a bit off his rocker when it came to sound doctrine. Scripture tells us that it is not the will of the Father for ANY to perish. This means that He sent Jesus to die for all. Not just a select group of people. The Jehovah's Witness's have close to the same faction of things.
Jay, I strongly agree with you. Calvinism is Cu-Cu and very cult-like in it's theology. I don't see where John Calvin could even base his findings on scripture.
In Christ's faithful service,
enoch777
Dear Jay,
I really had a good laugh at your posting yesterday regarding this subject.
I remember the years of debate regarding Calvinism. Remember thinking how
cruel Calvinists were. Being an evangelist I wondered how they approached
witnessing. Ever want to share war stories I've got some great ones.
Remember the very powerful, influential people that I used to argue with
regarding Calvinism. Boy the old days. But I never laid it down the way you
did, so you must be getting some interesting mail:-))))) Some things that
you attribute to Calvinism might be more the good old flesh. Just a thought.
Lord you are his shield, he is your vessel, protect and comfort him
spiritually and physically.
Peace to you,
Calvinism is just as partial as any man's perception concerning the will of
the Almighty.
Predestination however is a truth that cannot be taken out of the bible, or
explained away in hopes that God will be defended by man's righteous choice
and actions. For our righteousness is filthy.
Man's choice is evident in that all have sinned and come short of the glory
of God. So we know what we all chose.
But it is God who chose to shine the light out of the darkness, and we who
were dead....were quickened.
Dead men can't choose anything.
The bible does not contradict itself, there is no other way of explaining
it, than having the knowledge that truth is manifold.
Balance is the key here. I made a choice when I bowed the knee, but I will
never place the crown of my conversion on my own head. For if it was
ultimately left up to me, I would be dead by now. And if it weren't for His
grace, I could have never made it by work or choice.
Who can say that they chose God without the influence of His Holy Spirit?
Who can say that they came to Christ without the Father drawing them?
Who can say that God doesn't make vessels of wrath, such as Pharaoh, and
vessels of mercy, such as we that are saved?
Who can say that the word elect has no meaning?
Who can say that Jesus was not predestined to be betrayed?
And if betrayed, then the traitor was foreknown to this cause, or was it
circumstance?
And when was the Lamb slain? Before the foundations of the world. Was He
partial then? Or was the seventh day completed? What work should we rest in?
A completed work? But what if our destiny is up for grabs? Might as well
throw prophecy in the toilet if that is the case. Because How can God decree
something that man can choose His way out of? That is what is really stupid.
To think that God was created for man, instead of man being created for God.
Who will question Him who hardens whom He will?
So then every man in Christ has been in Him, chosen in Him before the
foundations of the world.
God is not up there, biting His almighty nails, hoping people will get
saved. According to Christ God the Father has GIVEN to Christ all that will
come to Him. And therefore all of those that the Father has not given Christ
will not come. And this truth in no way contradicts.. "whosoever will".
Do you think the reprobate care whether or not they are predestined? Who will
stand and defend those that curse God?
Jesus said of Capernaum, that if the works would have been done in Sodom,
then they would have repented. Why then did Capernaum become graced with the
demonstration, if there were others who would have received it more? Did God
not know the hearts?
But God rained fire on Sodom, without giving the works, that Jesus testified
of, that they would have repented with !
But it was in Capernaum that the works were done, even those who would not
repent. Does He not shut the ears and open them? Did He not blind the
Pharisees where they couldn't see?
IS God naive? Did He make a wrong move? Does He make mistakes?
Our calling and election must be sure. But the doctrine must not be based
upon what Calvin says.. but what the bible says.
Is anything I just wrote unbiblical?
Manifold truth does not contradict. God is one, yet He is three in one. Both
is true. God chooses, yet man chooses...both is true.
Chris
Yes, they have made grace another form of legalism.
Funny thing, I read some stuff on Calvin and Wesley and find they agreed
on much, but looked from different perspectives. The Calvinism today,
just as Wesley's Methodism have been perverted from their first truths.
In between the extremes of the two lies a greater truth.
laz
This sounds nice, and even like you are going to intellectually blow
Calvinists out of the water. But, the truth is that you would not be able to.
They will take what you have written so far and make you look like a school
child, according to scriptural exegesis.
The fact is that for many of us that have spent years in the ongoing
argument, there is balance. Many have even gone back and forth in belief but
the need is for simple balance. Christianity is balance. It always has been.
What do you think took place with Paul and Peter and the rest of the elders
at Jerusalem ? They came to a " balance " in their " opinions " of truth. When I read the passages , I
could easily take sides, but they apparently chose not to. Must have been
more intelligent than today's church, huh ? Guess that is why they were
apostles and there are none today. ( Plenty call themselves such, but are
they ? )
One truth remains after the smoke of the guns die down. That is that God is
way beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, and any other " ism " there is. Why do
men continue to think that they can put God in a doctrinal box ?
Blessings,
jim rapalje / fayetteville, nc
Dear Jay, I can tell you put a lot of thought into what you wrote. I would like to go over some of these things point by point. You are leaving the impression here that people who believe what you call "Calvinism" have learned what they have learned from the teachings of man. I have studied the subject of the doctrines of grace for several months, and my conclusions were reached by Scripture and Scripture alone. Since reaching the belief I now hold, I have read some books by RC Sproul, but I DID NOT read them prior to deciding whether what I believe is true or not. I am going to share some Scripture with you to try and answer you point by point. I pray you will also post this message so others can read it, and not read only what you have written.
How then do we test the spirits? If the Bible isn't the final authority, then why can't some of the cults be right in what they believe. Dear Brother Jay, the Bible is the infallible word of God. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
What is wrong here can best be described by the word "counterfeit"
Not the Scriptures but the Calvinists use of them. The definition of
the word "counterfeit" is really quite simple. Get as close to the
real or correct thing as possible without ever having the real thing
Joan said she has read some books. Excellent, May I suggest one
more. "The Other Side of Calvinism" by Laurence M. Vance Phd. It is
available through the "Bible Baptist Bookstore" P.O. Box 7135,
Pensacola.FL 32534 Phone (850) 477-8812. An excerpt of it can be
found at "Http://www.vancepublications.com/webdoc20.htm.
I too would like to give you an excerpt from the "Preface"
"A shortage of works against Calvinism is not an
adequate reason to begin an
undertaking of this magnitude unless there be an underlying cause.
The salient determinate is
the tremendously damaging nature of the Calvinistic system. The
doctrines of Calvinism if really believed and consistently
practiced are detrimental to evangelism, personal soul winning,
prayer, preaching, and practical Christianity in general."
Strong language indeed. One would think it is a collection of Non-
Calvinist speaking against Calvinism. But this is not so. Again from
the "Preface"
The format of the book is exactly as the Calvinist
have desired. One Calvinist says: "It is high time that we open our
hearts to an honest appraisal of Calvin and Calvinism."
Exactly. And the only way to make an honest appraisal of Calvin and
Calvinism is to do in the words of another Calvinist, "let Calvinism
speak for itself" Therefore, the amassing of statements
by non Calvinists against Calvinism as proof that Calvinism is false
will not be found in this book. In order to let Calvinism speak for
itself, the procedure to be followed will be a simple one, and one
employed by the Calvinist themselves. Just as one Calvinist says he
has quoted his opponents "at length that there might be no mistake
about what they believe," so the Calvinists themselves will be
extensively and eclectically cited that there might be no mistake
about what they believe. This is both to prevent the cry of
misrepresentation and to demonstrate the numerous contradictions that
exist among the Calvinist themselves. Anything that could possibly be
damaging to Calvinism will be documented from Calvinist or neutral
sources. All quotations including the use of bold, italics and
capitals, as well as spelling, grammar, and punctuation, appear
exactly as in the original source."
This preface I believe gives us a lot of insight on how to look into
this matter of Calvinism. And may I humbly summit that it could be
used as a method to approach this problem. All and any of my comments
on Calvinism will come from Vance's book. Also there will be some
from Loraine Boettner's book "The Reformed Doctrine of
Predestination"
God bless
don
Hi Joan,
Thanks for all these scriptures, they are all really good and of course
we agree. The points that we should discuss here are the ones that you
seem to be emphasizing. Your greatest emphasis is
"ARE YOU SAYING THE BIBLE IS NOT THE FINAL AUTHORITY???? If we see
something in the Bible we don't
believe balances with what OUR EXPERIENCE has been through what we
believe to be the Holy Spirit, then we should cast aside the teachings
of Scripture?"
My point exactly but you are saying it in a different way. The answer is
no, of course not. The Holy Spirit MUST be the final say in the
interpretation of scripture. If the scripture is interpreted without the
leading of the Holy Spirit and rests upon the authority of scripture
alone, it will lead to the present condition of incompatible doctrine
and a myriad of different biblical interpretations. They cannot be all
right just because they all take their authority from scripture.
The Calvinist interpretation of predestination is upon the scriptures
but misunderstands that God is not limited to our time. He is above time
and just because He knows the beginning and end of our temporal
existence does not mean that they are predetermined from our
perspective. God knew us from before time just as He will know us when
time is over, because we are also eternal. Eternity not only goes into
the limitless and boundless future, it also includes the past which is
just as timeless. We do not however enter into eternity until we receive
the gift of eternal life. Until then, it is if God does not yet know us
even though we have been with Him in eternity, we are still under the
curse of Adam and have not yet been regenerated. Trying to understand
these mysteries may not be easy but there are certain things that will
keep us from it and one of them is the doctrine of predestination taken
to the extreme that we are not able to choose from our own free will. As
far as I am concerned, Jesus is constantly knocking at the door of my
heart and I want to come to the door and let Him in. He is not forcing
it on my irresistably. If it sounds like I resent those that would teach
otherwise that's good. I am not going to give into a false system when
there is nothing that can be agreed upon except one-sided scriptures.
This is about the doctrine of grace, it is also about the doctrine of
holiness. My bible tells me that if we seek to be justified by the law,
we have fallen from grace. Grace fulfilled the law through Jesus dying
on the cross to give us that Christian freedom to be able to live a holy
life. Any other system of grace is another gospel.
Jay
Dear Jay, You have said a lot of things in this post that we are in absolute agreement on. God is certainly not limited to our time, as you said. He is from eternity, and He tells us His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are our ways His ways. I do not believe, nor do you, that the law saves us in any way. I guess that has been my point in this whole discussion. God is the one who gets the glory. It was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, which made salvation possible for anyone. Since I have come to believe that salvation is by God alone, I have come to a greater state of holiness, as that is what He has given to me. I give Him all the honor, glory, and praise. I am watching Him move both in my home and in my church. My 11-year-old son got up this morning and told me God spent part of the night dealing with his heart, and he knows now he is a child of God and has assurance of his salvation. If we believe salvation is because of a choice we make with our own "free will", how can we have assurance? Our wills are fickle indeed. God has promised He would save me through the gift of His dear Son on the cross, and He would keep me and continue doing a work in my life until it is completed. Because I know He is faithful and cannot lie, I can have assurance in His promises to me. As an "Arminian," since we are using the terms in this discussion, I was never sure of my own salvation, since I
believed it to be my work and not that of God. You see, I believe I was in a "works-based" faith back then, being justified by the law, as you stated. But now I am free. Praise God!! By His Grace, Joan
Election and predestination belong to the purpose of grace cherished in the Divine mind from all eternity : and as far as salvation is concerned they are the expression of the entire dependence of sinful man upon the grace of God from the beginning to the end. They are included together by St. Paul among the spiritual blessings bestowed upon believers; and the two transactions are regarded as taking place before the foundation of the world [Eph. 1:4,5]. Election has in view the persons who are to be the objects of Divine blessing; predestination the privileges and blessings which are to be their portion [Rom. 8:29,30; Eph. 1:4,5]. Foreknowledge [1 Pet. 1:2 ; Rom. 8:29 ; 1 Pet. 1:20] belongs to the same purpose of grace, and is spoken of by St. Paul as the first step in the Divine plan of salvation, for it is those God 'foreknew' whom He also 'foreordainded' to be conformed to the image of His Son. The word 'chose' in 1 Thess. 2:13 includes 'foreknew' and 'foreordained' of Rom. 8:29 and has itself apparently the force of 'elected'.
The doctrine of predestination [please bear with the size of the paragraph for it is one thought; kisses, hugs, puns, etc....] has practical applications full of comfort and encouragement. A reasonable assurance of salvation finds in the eternal decree, whose sole cause is the good pleasure and eternal will of God, tis most certain and abiding ground. To have a well-grounded persuasion, through the fruit of the Sprit and the evidences of the new life, that one is of the number of those whom God foreknew and foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, cannot fail on the one hand to fill one with gratitude and humility, and on the other to stimulate one to the pursuit of holiness and all the graces of the Christian life. The belief that God in His predestinating purpose has His elect-known to Him when unknown to man-in every community and every congregation where Christ is preached, is an encouragement to faithful ministry, as it was to St. Paul when in a vision of the night the Lord said to him : 'I have much people in this city' [Acts 18:10]. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in His word, and yielding obedience thereunto may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.
In Christ,
February 25, 2001
I thought you did a good job.
Arlette I approached the Calvinism dialogue a little differently this time
wanting to find a balance between the two sides of this issue and not be
so hard on them. There is no balance. Each view is hopelessly at odds
with the other. Calvinism in its entirety is to be thrown out; there are
no redeeming features whatsoever aside from going through the Passover
experience.
===============
Yeah, I know I am supposed to write to another address. I 'm not looking to
enter into a " Calvinist " discussion. Waste of time.
By His Grace, Joan
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