Last Discussion on Babylon?
This group is really blessed to have such spirituality.
There was enough dialogue on the sidelines here that I felt it was good
to forward these before I take the time and put a conclusion to Babylon
together. The first is a conversation between Dean and me concerning the
wasting of time in responding to those who trouble us. If we are truly
restoring the church (temple), then we are part of the Zerubbabel
ministry that has come out of Babylon. That makes us the remnant that
has been called out to do the building. Not by might, not by power, but
by My Spirit saith the Lord. During the Babylon discussion, we have seen
those who would rather tear down other's ministries than build up, we
have those sent that were allowed to attack us and we have those that
would divert our attention from the task at hand. All are to be expected
if we are really doing the work of the Lord but we must stay focused.
Then I have another conversation between Bordtodis and myself concerning
our focus and that Babylon is a state of mind and not a place. The
conclusion of the theme here was the fact that other great ministries
had been too focused on themselves and not completely been focused on
the Lord. Both of these conversations started on the sidelines but are
pertinent enough to what we are doing to share them, both are concerned
with making our focus clear. They also serve as a good conclusion to a
very fruitful discussion that we have had on Babylon. I am very
encouraged.
Jay.
Hi Jay, I am grieved. i came across this anti-charismatic stuff on the
net and the arguments were so poor that i decided to challenge
him....but he has not even responded. i am grieved by the hardness of
heart in people. well maybe he is just away or something. i will write
back if he doesn't respond and ask him for an acknowledgment. i am
thinking of putting together a website with some charismatic apologetics
cos so much nonsense is being said. and i could also put some articles
on it and some historical stuff. well we will see.
Hi Dean,
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in
my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your
remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my
peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not
your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
I do a lot of research on-line. I see a lot of good sites and bad ones.
I get hate mail every once in a while also but not even as much good
mail that I get. Most tell me that they have been blessed by what God
has taught me. I used to respond to the hate mail, no longer, it is a
waste of time and I want to use my time wisely.
There cannot be anyone that can be blessed by the words that a person
like that can say. The only blessing that one can think they receive is
to have itching ears that are hearing what they want to hear but it
doesn't come from the Lord. For me, it is usually a waste of time to
communicate with someone like that. It is the old saying that it is
unfair to have a war of wits with an unarmed person. The Holy Spirit
must be able to convince that person that he is ignorant. The more you
say will just entrench him into his own way of thinking and he will try
that much harder to find the words to combat you. Once you have been
baptized in the Holy Spirit, it can no longer be denied. I am glad that
Jesus baptized me the way He did. It was like a Damascus road
experience, I was not seeking it, it came through repentance. For
others, it may take the same but until then, they are satisfied with
their own smug satisfaction. This is part of the Babylonian confusion.
There is a time coming soon when they will be cast down and judgment is
coming to the church.
For me at least, I am spending my time with those that have a teachable
spirit and are doing God's will. You may be called to do something
different, like putting together answers to people like that, but if you
are grieved, I would think not. I don't get grieved any more, I get mad
at them and stretch my hand out against them. It may be in rebuke but it
also comes with the attitude that Lord, if they will repent, draw them
near to you, if not, stand in their way. I get the feeling sometimes of
being guilty because I do not want to confront them with the truth. But
if I am to spend my time wisely, it will be with people that respond to
the truth, not combat it. There are a lot of people that I do not
respond to.
If you feel called to do it, fine. But you are setting yourself up for
disappointment and grief most of the time. You could argue that it only
takes that one time for someone to respond that would make it all worth
while but for me that time is better spent on those that accept God's
Spirit, not teach against it. Do you realize that when someone comes to
his site and believes what he says, that they are already going that
direction anyway. If God is drawing a person to Him, that person will
see right through that hateful judgmental attitude and go somewhere else
for the truth.
I am just saying if it is a waste of time for me, it may be a waste of
time for you as well. You may need to confront a hundred of them for one
to believe you, God knows that there are many of them out there. You
are trying to reason with a person who is unreasonable, a meeting of
minds with someone with a defective mind, a spiritual encounter with a
lying spirit. A demon cannot be reasoned with, it must be cast out in
power.
There are many fruitful discussions that I have had with ignorant people
but it has only been fruitful in the sense that I have learned something
about them that I can pass on at my site concerning their ignorance. I
have yet to convince a bigoted person to change their ways, so I quit
trying and have to discipline myself not to feel that I have to take the
time and go back and try again. Self-rightousness and pride is a real
killer. I would rather talk to someone in the deepest depths of sin and
try to bring them to the truth than anyone that thinks that they have it
all together when they don't.
Jay.
Hi Jay, thank you very much for your email. you are totally right. i am
just being foolish to think i can
reason with these people. i have come across these types on the internet
and find them to be bigoted fundamentalists. i am foolish to think of
winning the war with reasoning. these people have never tasted of
the powers of the age to come or known the reality of the Word of God.
Jude says of these that of some 'we
should make a difference' and pluck them out of the fire. i thought this
guy might be different. a couple
of weeks ago i challenged this guy about a negative review he did on the
final quest. he has since taken
the site down for review. but the strongholds he has are so huge and
entrenched that i doubt i can help him
much. the word says concerning those who have a form of godliness but
deny the power of it: 'from such turn
away'. i am glad i shared this with you. like you i want to go to those
who are really in need, and i am
not called to people like that who are stumbling blocks....no one is
because Jesus said of them 'leave
them alone and let them fall in the ditch.'
Yeah, this is something I had to learn though. The other week someone
asked me to be a part of their discussion list. Since I am called to
discuss things i went and shared. Someone asked about "getting" the
Holy Ghost, so I gave them my testimony and the reply from the leader
was that they had all they needed. Stupid for sure, I hope I never have
that kind of self-sufficiency. The point is that I dismissed it, deleted
the e-mail link and figured that they didn't want to accept, so I have
better things to do than argue with them. But I felt guilty and could
not have peace over it. I kept thinking that they are Christians and I
should go back and reason with them some more and I was dismissing them
too quickly. I did not want to do it but had the attitude that I must
have peace about it and felt Lord do I have to? Anyway the next day, one
of
Marsha Burn's prophetic bulletins shared "Rise up above the noise and
clamor of circumstances that want to dominate your attention and focus.
Give no place for the nagging voice of the enemy that wants to dump you
down into condemnation, rejection and self-focus. Throw off the cloak of
anxiety and worry." Well only then did peace come because I realized
that the enemy was just trying to draw me into these fruitless arguments
and I should stay focused and not worry about it. Thought I would share
that.
Jay.
Hi Jay
I have found out that Babylon is not a place per say. Babylon is a
state of mind. You can get folks out of Babylon, but it's hard to get
Babylon out of the people. Many, actually hundreds of church systems
have started, people trying to get out on their own, trying to "manifest
Christ" within themselves, trying to "become" Christ in the earth,
trying to "enter into" resurrection life, only to become a carbon copy,
or a "mini Babylon" themselves. Sort of like the "hippie movement" only
to become a junio establishment themselves. The religionists have
taught me one thing, if it don't come easy, better leave it alone. The
religions were all created with a certain amount of stretching it trying
to find that one element that
makes themselves unique. The old mind game of man trying to build, to
improve, to see their own reflection in what they have created. That is
Babylon. Man's own arrogance.
Bordtodis
.............. By the way, Jay, what is your opinion of the revival down
at the AOG church in Pensacola, and the Toronto revival? Have you had a
chance to go and check them out? I am wondering how much the AOG has to
do with this. I know that the top people of the Assemblies don't seem
to be too verbal about it.
Hi again Bordtodis,
....... I have no idea about the AOG and Pensacola and Toronto. As far
as I can see, they are genuine moves of God but then, God is dealing
with me in His own way. I link to them. I have thought that the
assemblies of God
have generally been resistant to any revival movement that they think is
not coming directly from them. As they cling on to the confusion that
they are under and refuse to come to proper order, they tend to refute
things like the latter rain and the five-fold. As far as I know the AOG
has nothing to do with it. But since I keep away from them pretty much
and associate more with non-denominational, I cannot say for sure.
I only moved to Stockton in September and the Lord has not led me to a
church yet that is quite able to reach out to me in the way I know that
I am called there. My parents and sister go to a Baptist church and I
have been going to the sunday school class there most every week. The
pastor is good but Baptist, although he has been called upon by
Pentecostals as a unity speaker. He actually is good and open to
spiritual gifts. A lot of Baptists have become full gospel, especially
the American Baptists, not the Southern or the Conservative Baptists.
This pastor is American Baptist.
Last night I attended a meeting of a small group working downtown in an
outreach ministry. I think now that I am called there to work with them.
I have been waiting all my life for something, this may be it.
Thanks for the piece on Babylon. There has not been any more to add than
already discussed so I will be putting something together probably
tomorrow.
Jay
I was thinking about the Brownsville revival today, and here are my
thoughts: You know at one time, because of arrogance I would not consider
anything that was going on in any Assembly of God church as anything of
importance, because I thought that none of the denominations were "open
to what the Lord was doing in the earth." The implication being that
"what the Lord was doing in the earth" was fully captured within the
confines of our little "remnant."
That "remnant" I am referring to, now amounts to a pretty typical
Charismatic church, which aint all that bad, considering when I left
them about 17 or 18 years ago they were waiting for the "apostle to the
kingdom"
to come back from the grave and lead them into resurrection life. They
wouldn't even let them embalm his body.
I think back to a church I went to when I was a youth that was part
of the Jesus movement. There were miracles happening and people getting
saved, yet, when the Children of God infiltrated it, it only took around
2 weeks for the change to come. I left the church and the "Children"
left WITH the church, the pastor's wife, and 6 vans.
Well, I wonder why I am saying all this stuff. I think that I am
saying all this because I have come to realize that it matters not one
whit how firm a grasp we THINK we have of what "what God is saying in
this hour," Unless we have the reality of Jesus Christ in our hearts we
are just like any obscure and lifeless congregation. I think that so far
those people down in Pensacola are pretty much glorifying God, though
there are probably times when they get a little enthusiastic. I have no
idea if the reports are true about people growling and barking etc. I
don't know if the elders are allowing it or dealing with it when it
comes up. I just know that the gathering there has the same chance as
any, THERE BETTER BE A SUBMISSION TO THE LORD AND A CONFIRMING IN THE
WORD OF GOD, OR THEY ARE DESTINED TO FAIL. It may feel good for a
while, but the time will come when the emptiness will be unbearable,
looking back on all the promise, and realizing it wasn't the
devil that took it all away, it was the people themselves that threw it
all away.
I hope they have a good time down there. I hope there are millions
saved, and I pray for them. I pray though that they don't get into the
mode of thinking that they are the only people on earth that hear from
God, as that mindset is much more dangerous than thinking that some
animal sound means that God is saying this, or another means God is
saying that. God aint saying anything that He has not already plainly
said in His Word, it won't be some new "revelation," but there can be an
"illumination" of the word of God and a realization of the essence and
being of Jesus Christ, that is the key to the Kingdom of God. He is the
door opener. When He gets the praise, then it doesn't matter that much
to me how people want to turn the chairs, or what kind of hairstyle, or
music, or lingo, makes me no difference to me. Just God protect them
from the arrogance, don't let that set in, in the name of Jesus, Amen
Hi Bordtodis,
Of course I agree with what you said. I really hope that the AOG does
just what you say and become according to that illumination. I believe
that it will happen in part to that remnant you speak of no matter what
denomination. When I speak about getting out of Babylon, it is that
state of mind that you mentioned before and not a particular church.
When the Lord spoke to the seven churches, He did not tell them to get
out of the churches, He told them to repent and strengthen what
remained.
When you speak of "the apostle to the kingdom" are you referring to
William Branham? It sounds like it but I didn't know what denomination
he was from. From what I have read, it was really sad about him. The
Lord gave him a powerful ministry, he started believing what others said
about him, pride took him captive, went into an exclusive Jesus only
doctrine and God took him home. End of story. There are still those that
are trying to make him into a cult figure and still insist that he was
Elijah.
As to things like the Pensacola revival, I have generally addressed the
manifestations on one of my pages, I can't remember which one, maybe my
latter rain article. Anyway, I think that there can be counterfeit
spirits but enthusiasm is not one of them. Maybe we can get over
enthusiastic and the devil can imitate but the word is from the Greek
and means God within (entheos), can we have too much God within? The
enthusiasm produces excitement, joy and gladness and affects people in
different ways. Those at Pentecost were accused of too much wine. I
cannot say most anything for sure about them but I agree that they are
saved, are glorifying God and that their enthusiasm is a foretaste of
what will be happening with the latter rain outpouring. I personally
also believe that they will not think it is for them only and that is
why they have received that peculiar anointing. I think I will share
this with the group when I mail next, it has something to do with
Babylon and of those that have gotten out of her and it seems that it is
pretty much all that the lord has for us. That and a conversation that I
had with Dean.
Jay.
History of (another man)........ This is the apostle that I was
talking about Jay. This is the church that I was in and the church that
I loved, even to this day, I am troubled by the outcome of this
movement. It was so full of expectation, but it came to nothing. But
then perhaps it is finally on the right track, as they seem to have lost
some of the arrogance of their youth. Anyway, check this man out.
Looks like (that other man) had a great ministry and that he had the right
idea. He tried to do what we are doing today and that is restoring the
church to its original purity and getting people out of Babylon. It
would seem however that he stepped ahead of God's timing and like
William Branham's movement, pride set in. We in the restoration movement
need to be very careful that we do not make the same mistakes. His
ministry seemed to be centered around the man rather than the Lord. He
was the leader of the group and when he died, the leadership was given
over to his wife instead of to the Lord, where it belonged in the first
place.
I am proud to say that this group has acknowledged Jesus as our leader
and that we are servants to Him and to each other instead of leaders. I
am thankful that there are good people in this group like you who
recognize this. It was you who first drew my attention to the first
trumpet being blown and for us to lay our crowns at the feet of Jesus.
This more than anything will bring the five-fold into proper order for
us to have the wisdom and knowledge to get out of Babylon. If the
Babylonian captivity consists of religious confusion out of man's
efforts to reach God, then failed ministries teach us a good lesson. We
need to do the right things for the right reasons, humbling ourselves
before Him, giving Him the authority instead of trying to start new
churches and separatist ministries to do the work and resign ourselves
through the power of the Holy Ghost, let Him do the work and follow His
lead.
It is time to stop tearing down the ministries of others that do not
agree with us and seek to build them up. We know that God will humble
the proud and judgment begins at the house of God but that is His work,
not ours. You are so right, Babylon is not a place, it is a state of
mind and if we are to receive the seal of God, then we must humble
ourselves and renew our minds but there are so many overseers of the
church that need to know this before there can be true unity. They are
off doing their own thing for the Lord instead of the Lords thing. I
know this is my calling, to dialogue with others in love, identify the
divisions and get the word out so we can come to unity. It is to be done
in love for all of us and in putting away our pride so that they can
recognize us. God give us the strength!! Then we can be sent of the Lord
as a true apostles and God speak through us as true prophets and give up
condemning and confronting the church but rather seek to make it
stronger.
Appreciate your input brother,
Jay
April 14, 2000
Dean
In Him
Dean
Regarding Capitalism, i think we need to distinguish between modern day
monopolistic capitalism, which is
really a form of fascism/communism, and a free market economy, which
america was in the beginning. what we
have emerging now is a small group of international financiers who own
everything. the modern system is
built upon fractional reserve banking and such like. the early american
founders were against central banks
as the enemy of liberty. they were against eliminating gold and silver
from the economy and they were against
any group of people, whether the state or private financiers, being in a
position to influence the economy. i do believe in a true free market
economy as envisioned by the framers of the US constitution, and which
has made many countries in the West rich and prosperous while socialist
countries can't even feed their own.
Dean
your friend,
Bordtodis
your friend
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