Judgment and the Kingdom
We all realize that there will be a judgment. The confusing part is that
there will be several. Some time ago I called for a discussion on the
resurrections and got little response, something that I needed to work
out myself I thought, but the group is much larger now. The idea of the
judgments and especially the resurrection judgment keeps coming to my
mind from time to time and I would like a good prophetic discussion on
it. I am sure that it is just the confusion that I have about these
things, I hate being confused so I am bringing it to the group. The
church teaches only heaven and hell and spiritualizes the kingdom to
come. Where is the interpretation on these things?
I have discussed this briefly with Mike Brutto. Anyway, the idea of
several judgments, two or three resurrections, the kingdom on earth and
the kingdom of heaven is a real mystery to me. Put into it the idea of
saints being alive in heaven now and others in the Lord asleep awaiting
resurrection judgment and you are only left with more questions. The
JW's seem to think they have it all worked out but without the true
witness of the prophetic spirit, they cannot be trusted. Nature of
Christ heresies aside, the witnesses still seem to have come the
closest.
The earth will be populated during the millenium. Will this be flesh and
blood? The prophecies of Isaiah suggest precisely this. We know that our
swords have not been beaten into plowshares, so an a-millennial
interpretation makes no sense to me; neither has the lion laid down with
the lamb with children leading them. But then again, there will be a
resurrection at the end of the millenium, Gog and Magog are again loosed
to make war after no war is to be learned. The first resurrection at the
end of the thousand years seems to be what John's revelation teaches.
That doesn't make sense.
During this time, the whole earth will be filled with the knowledge of
the Lord. It will be a new earth, there will be no sea, all tears shall
be wiped away, suckling children will play with snakes, the blind will
see, the deaf will hear, the desert will bloom and the wilderness
blossom and the parched land sprout pools. We will live in the houses
that we ourselves have built, not others, we will eat the fruit from our
own vineyards, each under our own vine and fig tree. No more hunger or
thirst, the Lamb shall feed them and they will drink of the fountain of
living waters. Do these pertain to flesh and blood? Are not these things
yet to come? No more violence or oppression, nor more darkness, the Lord
Himself will be our light. Are we to spiritualize these things as to the
Christian era? Are we to preach a heaven and hell and ignore the kingdom
to come, should not the gospel of the kingdom include the millenium?
The last discussion on justification and sanctification is very
pertinent here. This is the effect and perhaps even the essence of our
very salvation. Those translated in a "twinkling of an eye" are very
different from those that asleep and await judgment. We know that
judgment has already been pronounced on those that have not accepted
Jesus and that we are not under condemnation if we are truly in Christ
Jesus. Then where is the judgment? Is it while we are yet living? or
upon resurrection? or both? We shall "all" stand before the judgment
seat of Christ?
No answers here, only questions. There are many thoughts on the matter,
so we need not fear being wrong, only inquisitive. Can we come up with
answers, or should these things remain a mystery? I have never heard
adequate answers on these things to dispel my confusion. I cannot
believe that we are to remain in a condition of confusion, or is it just
me? Mike made the point that "Now, how can this not interest the group?
Our salvation and where we wind up at the end of this life should be the
most important thing on all of our minds. What else is more important
than that?"
So what do you think?
Jay
Jay, Everybody seems to be saying they are in favor of love, but I am a
little unclear as to what they mean by it; so I want to try to write a
little
essay on my understanding of it.
Love, in Scripture, is not just an emotion or good feeling, but a
redemptive course of action. God so loved the world, messed up as it
was,
that He gave His only Son (a rather drastic course of action).
The Son showed the love of God throughout His earthly ministry by
He spent most of His time teaching His disciples to do the same kind
of
things. So I assume He still wants disciples to learn to do likewise.
He climaxed and validated all of the above by sacrificing His life
for
us. "Greater love has no man than this," we are told, "than to give up
His
life for His friends." I don't think that this means that we necessarily
have
to be crucified or meet some similarly gruesome death, but we should
probably
be available for it if need arises. We do know that the Gospel is
prospering
the most in places where the most people are getting killed for their
faith.
All of the above are really works of the Holy Spirit. After all,
everything that Jesus did was a gift of the Spirit. He was able to say
honestly that everything He said and did was given to Him from the
Father. He
spoke the Father's words and did His works.
The relationship between the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of
the
Spirit are made clear in 1 Corinthians 12--14. Love divorced from the
manifestation of the Spirit , is just a nice feeling, or, at best, human
love. The gifts of the Spirit without love are just showing off. You
can't
really have one without the other.
The works of love listed above are the way that Jesus demonstrated
and
taught His redemptive purpose of restoring all things.
If we do these things, we will not only get into
trouble/persecution, but
we will see the glorious purposes of God unfold in preparation for His
coming
and the full establishment of His Kingdom.
Edwin Stube
------------
Jay, I have for some days been intending to tell who I am. I am a
retired
Episcopal priest living in Baltimore, Maryland. I got involved in the
charismatic scene in the late
1950's. I received a prophecy, given to me in two distinct times and
places,
but apparently in exactly the same words, calling me to be an apostle to
go
to a remote place, do signs and wonders, make converts and disciple
many. Rather stringent requirements were also given--give up all our money, be
separated from family a lot, go wherever the Lord said. This was at a
time
when almost nobody thought there were apostles. I spent 7 years in
preparation, pastoring the Lord's flocks on the prairies of Montana,
reading
the Bible from cover to cover over and over. In 1965, after three months
of
24-hour a day prayer, we quickly incorporated a little prayer group in
the
name of The Holy Way and left within a month for Indonesia. All that had
been
prophesied did indeed happen.
We learned directly from the Lord, with
some
help from Bill Britton, most of the lessons that we have recently been
talking about on the email--five-fold ministry, manifest sons, entire
sanctification, Biblical patterns for evangelism and church planting,
miracle
ministry, end-time truths, etc. By studying the methods of Jesus and His
followers, we developed a radical method of training disciples. We
gather
little groups of people, who go wherever the Lord directs and see what
He is
doing. When there is opportunity, we sit down and talk over what we have
seen. In 1972, we had a totally supernatural Bible Camp on the subject
of the
world mission of the church. The Lord taught us that ministry never
rises
above the level of worship. If we worship in the natural, we will have
to set
up natural strategies for ministry. If we worship in the Spirit, we will
be
able to minister by the gifts of the Spirit. If we worship in the Holy
of
Holies (in the presence of the Lord) we will be able to export the
glorious
presence of the Lord wherever we go. At the close of the Camp, teams
were
sent out to many of the islands of Indonesia and even to other
countries.
Today there are training centers in all of the islands visited. Most of
our
graduates have established training programs in other parts of the
country.
We survived the attempted communist coup in 1965.We met great opposition
and
persecution from churches. Now, many of the churches that opposed us are
practicing what we taught. The whole spiritual climate has changed. The
work
was indigenized in 1977, when our family returned to the United States.
It has
really flourished since we left.
For many years, we have prayed for
similar
things to happen in the United States. We rejoice that now there is an
openness to these things. We have now opened two worship centers in this
country, one in Virginia and one in North Carolina. We think that these
will
become training centers, using the methods and according to the vision
the
Lord has taught us. At present the Lord is using younger people for the
active parts of the ministry. He has me mostly in a prophetic mode and
communicating with friends on the internet, trying to spread the vision.
In
Jesus' love,
WHERE DID ALL OF THE LOVE GO??? (smile) Jay, my friend and brother in
Christ, to whom much is given, much is required. Yet, you have a
powerful
Father with you. And many of us feel the same way that you do. Keep
feeding us, brother. "Be of good courage."
Bill Caraway
Hi Jay i thought the latest discussion was really
good, and you answered that guy very very wisely. i
think the other person was maybe right about the use
of the word 'heresy'. i maybe should have said
'counterfeit' or something abit softer. i don't know.
well take care bro
-------------
Hi Dean,
I wrote back and asked James that mentioned heresy to elaborate on
exactly what he was referring to. I did not even realize that it might
have been you, I saw nothing wrong with it and thought it must have been
me. He did not get back to me
before this last one, but today I got a letter saying that HE was sorry
for getting carried away. A little self-examination is good for all of
us.
Jay
Bro Atkinson:
My name is Norman Gillis. I did not receive the baptism of the Holy
Ghost
until I was 45. I had wandered around, touching a lot of religious
denominations and philosophies until the Lord called me to the Body of
Christ in 1981. I was ordained to the ministry of the Body, and sent to
Saltillo, Mexico as an evangelist to help with the churches there in
Mexico.
After nine months in Mexico my wife and I returned to California to
take
care of family business and medical treatments. We plan to return to
Mexico
as soon as the Lord makes a way.
Norman Gillis OmniSalud de Saltillo
September 8, 2000
Edwin Stube
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