The Household of Faith

July 20th, 2006

I won't linger in the slimepits but we need to get in a little deeper, it's very dark down there.   

We are of the household of faith, that's a good thing. What is in the outer court? The entire world? Possibly, because this is how far as reconciliation extends, Jesus did that on the cross. The Lord wants us into the holy of holies and certainly not in the pits yet grace follows us a long way down. We think we have freedom in Christ to sin? That's delusion, what we sow, we will reap. Sin leads to death, we cannot sin unless we take ourselves out of the spirit and away from kingdom business. Bottom line is in recognizing sin and having the power to abstain while still offering freedom for those that will not. Jesus died for all.

War with spiritual Sodom has the fruit of the Holy Spirit and we are in the race or we are hypocrites. Strong faith, prayer and positive action will be what finally brings a dead church to life. The household of faith includes all those things that Sodom is known for. We are to hate the sin but love the sinner. In or out of faith, the devil has the upper hand for some. Love is the driving force of the fruits of the spirit, not condemnation or retribution. The flesh wants to lash out at others. If there is not the grace of ourselves, we have no right to expect it at all.

Marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Crowding around that issue are the acceptable life style crowd, the intolerance crowd and the understanding of the liberty that Jesus brought crowd. Neither puritanical nor hedonistic natures lead to holiness. As long as the message is sin is sin and Jesus loves us all anyway, we might bring more into the holy place. Can we make a quantum leap into the holy of holies? Happened to me, but I backslid worse than before. I came back but as through fire, my wedding clothes still smoke. Plenty like me in the household of faith.

There are human rights and civil liberties issues that should be fought for. It's a spiritual thing, the sons of God are led by His spirit where freedom and tolerance brings peace. This may be a select group but there will be multitudes bringing healing and deliverance. If we can't get everyone into the Holy of holies, meet them in the holy place, if that is too hard, meet them where they are. I'm not speaking for God here, I am speaking as a man and the appeal for brotherly love.

Being blind to the truth clouds our judgment. The sins of Sodom that are implicit in free sex and the worshiping of the image of the beast are the same in that they seek justification from the flesh, one through an outward act and one through a delusion. Every time fleshly desires compromise with this world system or its sins, it gets in the way of walking and talking in the spirit. In a nationalistic sense, that's what happened to the church once 9/11 fears set in, they began to speak for Ahab big time, they then become our Jezebel as the revival turns where Jesus is waging the real war. Same problem as it always is, we have the knowledge of good and evil and sometimes we don't recognize either one. The responses this time reflect the knowledge of the sons of God.

Here is a verse that I now want to dwell on:

"Ezekiel 16:49  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy."

Sexual sin always craves for more, slavery to mammon is like that. All the God love them adulterers, the practitioners of illicit sex, the fornicators and perverts, hetero, homos and bi, all bear witness to the fact that reconciliation descends into the slimepits. That's where grace comes in. What do we see in the dark places when the light of reasoning illuminates things? A world of mammon precludes strengthening the hand of the poor. How far into the abyss are these squeaky clean church going business people, large and small? Profits over prophets? The laizzes faire god of the market place? Where does it go in the world? The ultimate economic crash is coming, where is it coming from?

The big question here is where the Lord is in all this. I want your responses. God is doing lots of things today but specifically, where is God using His people around the world in strengthening the hand of the poor? What governments do you think best represent the interests of the poor? Share your thoughts.
Get back to me at


When my niece who was born from above and Spirit-filled moved in with her boyfriend whom she loved..First, she knows I love her..When I pointed out to her her'landing place' in her future was Hell   It gave her the Truth to dwell on and it worked!  She and Jamie
were married 3 weeks ago!! Soooo the first thing they must know is we LOVE them!
When they KNOW love we can impact them for godliness..I'd to like point out to the fire and brimstone people it says in the Bible that it's the "kindness" of God that leads 'sinners to repentance'..
May I point out (and ask) have you the 'fruit of the Holy Spirit' working in your life?  If
your answer is yes then  GO GET THEM from the slime pit.......They will listen!

Venida O'Nan, Lambsburg, Va

That's right Venida. The church has for the most part let all these things happen because they didn't speak out like you did. I have had to deal with things in my own family where I could have overlooked what was going on and I didn't. Been times in my life when I let things go by and was sorry for it. It is right to be bearing fruit too.


Right on, Jay

Yvonne Hursh

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!!!!!  We MUST expose the false prophets in the church today.  They are easily identifiable by the fruit (or lack of it!!).  The church is under heavy attack.  We as true believers must be strong in faith.  We must be faithful & obedient to the end.  How can we just sit there as the enemy attacks our families, communities, & churches.  We were brought to the Lord to be used by Him.  We were bought with a HEAVY PRICE & are not our own.  We are @ war.  We need to start acting like it!!!!!!!  We all must put on the whole armor of God & go on the offensive with the 2 edged sword (His Word).  We can tear down the strongholds of the enemy quickly if we would do that.  The Lord spoke to me once & gave me a vision to support what He was showing me.  First of all, He showed me a vision with the body parts of a mannequin strewn all over the place.  Then He said this to me: "This is the state of My body today, the church.  They are not together in one accord.  Instead they are divided.  I can(?)
There is much work to be done.  But the Lord has revealed to me that it can be done MUCH QUICKER than we think.  It will be those STRONG & STEADFAST in faith, bold & courageous, confident in who they are in Christ, who will be the ones to turn this thing around.  Then, the Lord can come & receive His bride.  On another note, it is clear from scriptures that with the forgiveness of sins comes healing.  What did Jesus say in Matthew 9?  He clearly put the forgiveness of sins & healing as equal or that they are one & the same.  As we read all through the New Testament, we see that healing came to man through faith (just as our salvation does).  God is just & fair.  he loves us all DEARLY.  Do you really think He would keep us sick & diseased if we are faithful & obedient to Him?  Do you think if a homosexual repented of their lifestyle & asked the Lord for forgiveness that he doesn't cure them of the AIDS virus if they have it?  Of course He does.  BUT, healing/deliverance MUST be received by faith.  We MUST beli(?)
Spirit.  We can only do this through faith & obedience.  As we die to self, we produce oil (or fruits of the Spirit).  This in turn lights the lamp within us (or brings the fruits of the Spirit to the forefront in our lives).  If we do not die to self all the way up until He comes, we will run out of oil & be left behind.  This is EXACTLY how the Holy Spirit translated this parable to me in my spirit.  I have so much more to share but I must go.  I live in Miami.


Hi Scott,

You are the second person that mentioned the fruits of the spirit.

We know during these times that these plagues will happen and some people still won't repent so only the Lord wins the final battle. Until then, we tear down strongholds like you say, plucking those out of the fire even as we speak. We are in the way, or should be. If God has given us the armor of God, where is it in the fight? Hidden away somewhere, maybe it is the Christians who need to come out of the closet. Where are the people of God fit for battle?

Holiness is key. We must not forget to preach holy is the Bride and sin separates us from that holiness. To see the Lord, we must come holy, simply put, as John the Baptist rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees, bring fruits meet for repentance.


keep this crap in your own house!!!!!!!!!!!


Do you believe in the restoration of all things? Do you believe Jesus will ultimately save all mankind? Your article does not make that clear. Speaking of "slime pits," (referring to Sodom I assume), there are slime pits twice as deep in other circles which you should probably concentrate on first before you go after the Sodomites, don't you think? And these are in your own camp, so you won't have to travel so far to deal with them.

Jerusalem was the city of God's priests, His highest. Now bringing this lesson into the church, what should you learn from the following passage?

Gary Amirault

Ezekiel 16:24-63  24 That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.  25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way (churches?), and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.  26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.  27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.  28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.  29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.  30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;  31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;  32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!  33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.  34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.  35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:  36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;  37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.  38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.  39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.  40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.  41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.  42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.  43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.  44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.  45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.  46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.  47 Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.  48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.  49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.  50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.  51 Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.  52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.  53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: 54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.  55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.  56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,  57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.  58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.  59 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.  60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.  61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.  62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:  63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Hi Gary,

The slimepits of Sodom run deep, we will be getting to your concerns soon as well. Jerusalem is many times compared to Sodom, that chapter of Ezekiel is coming next whenever, especially:

49  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

I tried to start there first but couldn't get it out. Had to tackle this issue and get to the other elements later. Should be much more fun. Personal sins and repentance need to be confronted before we go to societal sins.


Sin is sin


I could not agree more with your words in this newsletter!
It has been a long time since I have heard anything from you or your group. (over 2 years, I think)

It is good to be in fellowship with other believers who are willing to call sin sin. Indeed, it is a necessity for me, in these last days, to stand up for the holiness and the righteousness of God, especially within the camp of believers! Time is growing short, and we need to get back on the right path to the Father.

God Bless You.

Min. Eric Lewis

Hi Eric,

Thanks for reminding us what "camp" we are in. If it is war, holiness and righteousness are part of the full armor.



Joy Hall

this war is an age old war, almost from Adam and Eve in the Garden

a sore loser, is this enemy, the father of lies, even called defeated in heaven he tries to take away as many as he can before Jesus returns.
the war is fought on two levels, the physical and the spiritual, His word tells us first in the physical then the spiritual.
to overcome in the physical is to be established and defined in the spiritual.

Jesus said love the unlovable and for me that is child murderers, molesters, etc. to harm an innocent child  is an abomination.
homosexuality as it is presented is warped into protecting the rights of male sodomizers, and the perversity of physical love meant for a man and a woman, not the same sex arrangements we hear of.

i do not, i refuse, to take away the rights of any man or woman, even The Lord god declares love the people, not what they do.

the war against homosexuals can only be finished in the spiritual, their rights as people never comes into doubt, to me. they were created by the Father, He loves them the same as saved peoples.

We are commanded to love them as the Father loves us, but no where in the Bible does it say to condone their sin. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed off the face of the earth for not repenting. I am tired of hearing homosexuals tell me God made them homosexual so they can minister to others. if any one thinks (is tricked into) he is homosexual, (women also) then they must never act upon it. The Lord will remove the deception when He sees fit, as long as the person is willing to give it up. it sounds very easy but some of the best battles i have seen have been against the perverse unclean spirits of flesh and lust.

we cant despise the people, we must fight against the unclean spirits and demons that enslave them.

Hope this makes sense.

Good to hear from you Jay

Teresa Tickner

Hi Teresa,

Loving the unloved, good point. Our heart naturally goes out to the molested child rather than the child molester but we are commanded to love even one such as that. That's hard to do. I have heard that child molesters in prisons need special treatment in some places because of the constant threat of violence against them.

Love is the first fruit of the Christian spirit. If we are to have war, it is with the wickedness in high places, the demon strongholds, the sin nature and not with the people that Jesus died to save.

Thanks for the insight


Dear Jay,
Thanks for this.
I wrote on this subject a couple of weeks ago on my list. I believe it is crucial that the Church addresses it. I will copy here my thots just in case you find it useful to share with your list.
Chimezie & Ibidun Onyebilanma - serving the unreached of Africa through Calvary Ministries (CAPRO).
"I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" ~ Phil. 3:12


Sunday, 28th of May, 2006

RUTH 9: A generation of sexual gluttons


“Flee sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body’ 1 Corinthians 6: 18

Following Naomi´s directives on how to get a kinsman-redeemer, Ruth went to Boaz´s house in chapter 3. And when Boaz discovered in the middle of the night that it who her that had come, he made a statement which brings out another important character of this wonderful lady, Ruth.

He said “you have not run after younger men, whether rich or poor´ (Ruth 3:10). This lady was a chaste woman. Despite her idolatrous (and possible immoral) heathen background, she had become through the help of Jehovah a pure woman. Many young persons in her desperate and needy situation would have excused themselves for indulging in fleshy lust, but not Ruth.

It was Billy Graham that said that ours is a generation of sexual gluttons. Modern civilisation has adopted the morality of Sodom of Gomorrah. And the Church, weaken by her own compromise in this area, is no longer able to call this sin by its name. Instead denominations are debating today how much lower it will be acceptable to reduce the standard of what is acceptable. How can we denounce the evil of homosexuality when we are living in adultery? Today the Church is alarmingly full of immorality both among the clergy and laity. No wonder we do not preach too much about it!

I encourage you to meditate on 1 Thessalonians 4: 3-8 and 2Timothy 2: 22. These passages are so important for all of us – single or married because our society has become a cesspool surging out a flood of sexual temptations especially through the media, TV, and internet to pollute us. There is an all out war from hell to make us impure and hence useless for God´s high purposes (2 Timothy 2:20-21).  I can tell you from my own personal life that this attack is real. Can you imagine the amount of pornography that available today via the internet!

Yet God, according to these passages above, looks for people who will walk in sanctification like Ruth. Not people who are not tempted but people who do not yield to temptation. The will of God is that we be holy. That we “should learn to control our body in a way that is holy and honourable’. God says in 1 Thessalonians 4: 5 that it is not his will that we live as the heathen. You know that the unregenerated man behaves like a dog. If he feels it, he does it. He lives by his passions. But we by God´s Spirit in us can control our passions.

Paul in 2 Timothy 2: 22 tells us how to escape sexual immorality, he says "flee". This is the most practical counsel on how to overcome sexual temptations. It is not necessary to try to stay to show how strong you are in front of anything that infatuates you. It is better to run away. The problem comes often when we do not flee right away at the appearance of evil. When we don´t we will find out we will compromise. Many try to tell themselves they can enjoy for example the flirting or the apparently immoral film up to an extent and no harm would be done. How foolish!

In conclusion, I want to say two things. The first is that no matter how bad our past has been in this area we can begin anew. The blood of Jesus is so powerful that it can wash away completely whatever mess you have made. Just ask him right now to forgive you and cleanse you (1 John 1:9). And ask him to give you power to walk away from lust. Secondly, if you need more help and would like us to discuss further on this issue, I´d be very happy to hear from you.

Comments? Questions? etc. If these messages have been helpful or unclear it would encourage us to hear from you, please write to

I believe there is such a powerful sexual stronghold in this country and in other countries too that is it truly going to take some major spiritual warfare to disarm it. I have wrestled with things in my own life that I have been so ashamed of. Not homosexuality but other things. Sometimes I think women confuse love and lust and will do anything to be loved and accepted. I have been there and I know that my God has forgiven me. He is so wonderful. The very sad thing is seeing the sexuality in the small children. My little grand daughter who is eight years old can move so provocatively and knows way too much.Where is the innocence? I have even seen people encourage their children to dance and move for others. It sickens me. I know it sickens Him. Thank you for this site and for your faithfulness. God bless and keep you until His appearing...

Cindi Estep

Thanks Cindi,

It takes a lot of courage and character to admit to these types of sins. Your experiences are a lot like mine, different sex of course but homosexuality was never one of my problems either. It was a bunch of other things though, I had an eye for the girls early on, used to get off on girly magazines every month and thought nothing about it, like others, I thought it was even a healthy, normal release of sexual tension. Don't want to get into detail, it was one of the things that I had to repent of early on in my salvation yet still have problems.


Hi jay
Good stuff

Hey Jay...
I only have one thing to say and that is that we don't have to war against sin except in our personal lives but even then only in our choice to allow the Holy Spirit to overcome sin for us. It is clear that the Flesh is an enemy more powerful than we are, and that the Holy Spirit is the only One capable of defeating our enemies. We only have to choose  against sin and the Holy Spirit does the work of deliverance. As for the world, it is clear in Scripture that we are not the judge or the jury but only called to love, pray and testify of the love of God manifest in Jesus Christ under the direction and anointing of the Holy Spirit. That is the whole deal - there is nothing else. Anything outside of this is sin!!

Paul Weigel

Hi Jay and all,
         I am glad of the opportunity to respond to this. You are right that hanging around the slimepits is is, to our squeaky clean image, as I am finding out. But that's a small price to pay when Jesus came to call just the people you mention and has given us that privilege. If we would lose some of the religious pride we have and stop hanging around with the finger-pointers, we might see as a body where our priorities lie and start the real work that He has called us to do, which is to bring in the lost.
        It strikes me as foolish that most of the church is busy giving the Gospel to itself. We are supposed to know it already so it is time to give it away to the sick ones, not the healthy. Or maybe they are not so healthy as they look. Good point. Either way, in my mind and heart there is no dilemma about getting out there with the sinful world and taking Jesus with us. In fact, it is the only thing I feel comfortable with in my spirit in these increasingly iniquitous days.
        We are not going to stop that march of iniquity, might as well face facts. Sin is abounding and the right to sin is prized above all things, protected by governments, legislated for, incorporated into  every avenue of life and business through political correctness. Oh, perish the thought that we should offend anyone by saying what we mean.
         But the worst thing is not the sin, even so. It is that the love of many will wax cold. Unless we get a hold of that danger as the real threat eternally, we have missed the point. Jesus showed us clearly, we have no right to look down on another no matter what sinfulness they are engaged in. And if all we do is point out their sinfulness without having enough love to bear with them and see them properly saved, healed, delivered, at oh, its that pharisee thing again. Tying up great burdens on mens' backs without lifting a finger to help them into the kingdom.

OK looking at your list of things:

Sin is sin, agreed.
Sexual relationship outside of marriage is sin.
Homosexuality is sin.
Sodomy is sin.
Coveting someone else's husband/wife is sin
Pornography is sin.

Masturbation is one of those things no one likes to discuss but everyone does. Mostly we do it in private so at least it doesn't affect anyone else if that is the case. If it does affect someone else somehow, it is sinful sex, unless it is within the marital relationship.

I am glad you didn't say that masturbation is sin. The different male/female psychologies and differences in sexual function would tend to suggest that masturbation is more important to women than men, even in the marital context. Nuff said on that.

How all this relates to holiness in the church is through confronting the truth of our condition. It is no good any longer to pretend that the church is pure as the driven snow: it is full of sexual deviation and transgression and lies and hypocrisy. It is viler to appear white while privately sinning, far viler than sinning in the first place, lets get that straight. Sin can be  forgiven and repented of: hypocrisy is denial of the cross fundamentally. Thats why the antichrist spirit is right at home with the religious.

Too lightly we say "repent", because mostly we have no intention of helping others with their particular sin problem, or even letting them help us with ours. That is because we are never honest enough to admit that we are doing something wrong ourselves, largely.

What I see is a new breed of prophet coming up for these times we are living in. It is probably something to do with the appearance of the two witnesses. They are in the business of confrontation, but not pharisee finger-pointing style as we have seen rampant in the church. They are confrontational of themselves first, openly so, which gives them a disarming humility, being up front about their personal sin. Being so engaged in self confrontation, they cannot look down on anyone. Sinners will look on and see their hope in Jesus. The self-righteous and the prideful will hate the whole honest process and resolve to kill them, one way or another.

What problem is a loss of reputation to one who already has none?

Personally, I have found every kind of sin living in me somewhere, in some form, in potential if not in actual expression. I have found all the things you listed. I can put a brave face on and declare that my circumstances have made me this way, but here there can be no excuses. I am numbered with the sinners because that is what I am.

But Jesus saved me. He changed my name to His name. He is my blessed Hope.
He will come and rescue me and all of us from the slime pits.
He will wash us til we are whiter than snow.
Come Lord Jesus.

Love, Mary.

Hi Mary,

Pretty much covered it all. In the useful responses are two themes, first we are in agreement that sin is sin and we should call it such, and the other is love and the fruits of the spirit is the response to sinners. Obviously that is the way that I must carry on the dialogue.

Masturbation of course is a touchy subject. I suppose what would make the difference of whether it is sin or not is the attitude of the heart. I don't know what a woman would be thinking but for men, it is sexual fantasies that bring on the lust of the heart that Jesus said is the same as adultery.



Touchy subject, haha.
   But it is one that people are hung up about on account of no one being brave enough to discuss it.
In marriage, I would think there should be room for each one to express themselves sexually, but that takes a whole lot of trust and a whole lot of love and patience, tolerance, tenderness...forgiveness even. I don't know anyone who has that kind of relationship. I know it must exist though because God is no prude: He made us and He knows what makes us tick.

Women need release and penetration is not always the way. Men like to see women having the release and that is enough to make the women fake it, we are so programmed to please. I think if we got rid of the issues we all have on masturbation there would be less adultery, less rape, less molestation, less abuse of others, less homosexuality even... and definitely less room for the devil to take advantage of our not being willing to look at ourselves in the flesh with a cold knowing stare. I am still talking about the church by the way, all those things exist there.

Its just such a failure when the love has gone in a relationship. And when it has gone somewhere else, that is a cruel thing, far worse than simple lust. Most women I am sure want that exclusive kind of love that permits experimentation and growth through an unbreakable bond.

Why do we all go around hurting each other so much?

Appreciate this subject.
     Love, Mary

Hi everyone

First of all I thank the Father for all of u, you know the word of the Father tells us that we all come up short of the glory of Him. He also tells us to love him and to love one another, why because his Son died for the whole world. for all sinners, that is why the word tells us that the whole world waits for the Son's of God to be reviled. Why because when we as children of God get our crap together and start living and loving as we our supposed to we will walk in newness of life, with power and healing in our hands.

Christ died for the whole world, why because The Father loves the world that He created, we as children of God are to go and show the rest of the world that they to can become children of God, We must first let them see the love that we have towards one another, But I don't think they see that right now, we must ask ourselves what do they see, I am afraid that they see just the opposite no wonder they don't want to be like us.

God tells us in his word that judgement must first began in the household of believers, that is we must first look to our selves to see if there is any wickedness in us, and if there is we must hold it up to the light of the truth of the word. repent of our wickedness and let the washing of the word change us. You know I am learning that love is a choice, God first loved me so than I chose to love him .We to must chose to love one another when we do that the world will see the love we have for one other and want to be a part of us.

In Gal 5:13-26 God tells us, My brothers, you were called, as you know, to liberty; but be careful, or this liberty will provide an opening for self-indulgence. Serve one another, rather in works of love, since the whole of the law is summarized in a single command; Love your neighbor as yourself. If you go snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, you had better watch or you will destroy the whole community. Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence, since self-indulgence is the opposite of the Spirit, the Spirit is totally against such a thing, and it is precisely because the two are so opposed that you do not always carry out your good intentions. If you are led by the Spirit, no law can touch you. When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious:fornication, gross indecency and sexual irresponsibility; idolatry and sorcery; feuds and wrangling, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels; disagreements, factions, envy; drunkenness, orgies and similar things. I warn you now, as I warned you before those who behave like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. What the Spirit brings is very different: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness and self-control. There can not be no law against things like that, of course. You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires. Since the Spirit is our life, let us be directed by the Spirit. We must stop being conceited, provocative and envious.

So we have a choice to walk by our flesh or walk by the Spirit of truth that lives in us. this is our check up every second of the day to see where we are if we are doing or saying anything that is not of love we are choosing to walk by our flesh and not by the Spirit of love.

I am learning to start in my home first then I am free to go out every day in to the world and take the same love to them. It is my choice to love. why because I am finding out that it benefit's me and others.

How people will want to know what is it that I have that they don't. then I can open my mouth and tell them about God my father and about my brother Jesus and what they did for me and what they want to do for them. also my family and friends and brothers and sisters in Christ will also benefit from all the love I have. So brothers and sisters I beg u to choose to Love first your self than your family, your brothers and sisters in Christ, and then them who are out side the family of God.

               I love u all J

Hi Jackie,

Yes, the household of faith first, judgment begins with us. This is where we separate the faithful from the hypocrites. So so true.

Jesus dying for the whole world seems to confuse some people. Not us of course. To many Calvinists, Jesus died only for the elect, others seem to insist that everyone will be saved and there is no hell. Neither makes sense to me unless the Bible is twisted to fit, I can't see where they get those ideas. Anyway, that's another time, your conclusions mirror mine, God is love, He loves us and we are to take that love and share it with others, plucking them out of the fire. I am fond of saying that holiness is key, that is right living, it starts with love and that is in making that choice.

Thanks for the response.



I agree me brother, we all need change as well as this society. Things need to change, wither Jesus comes back or not in the near future, it up to us to do the changing. Jesus will just make it permanent. Thank you for your letter. It was a good read.


Koallah Qaram

Before the judgement of the Church = the angel is told to measure the temple, the altar and the people who worship therein. Measurement is judgement = anything out of the alignment or plumbline of God's word will be destroyed. Part of the mystery of iniquity that is already at work now is what is allowing the doctrines of demons to continue to seduce the one's with itching ears away from the standards that God requires of his people = Be ye Holy for I AM Holy! Spiritual Adultery is rampant in the Church today as the kingdom of man is being built and exalted = this is Idolatry = the serving of the god of mammon rather than the One and Only True Living God. Because iniquity abounds the love of many grows cold and many are offended when they hear the True Gospel of the = Kingdom of God. Compromise is spiritual adultery and this seducing spirit is the undoing of the Church which causes the great falling away. For God himself declares that he would send a spirit of = STRONG DELUSION = to those who do not have a = LOVE FOR THE TRUTH = so they would believe the lie. Another gospel, another jesus, and another spirit is behind this falsehood that is the = COUNTERFEIT CHURCH. Sodom and the slimepits are there for anyone who is seduced into this place of death. We have a free will to choose whom we will serve, to choose life or death, blessings or curses. Choose Life.

Black is black and white is white.
Scripture is black regarding homosexuality.
Those who say otherwise expose themselves and others to the consequences of being willing to be deceived.
That means all organizations who promote deception inside and outside of the church.
Being in such an organization is dangerous.
(But then being a US citizen is dangerous too since our courts deny being under God!)
I guess where we have a choice, we should come out from among them (those who do not call black black and white white).
If there is no choice, then we should denounce the lies and teach our family and neighbours the truth.
Vince Piotet

That's right Vince,

Thankfully we live in a society where we do have a choice to speak the truth but the main reason that we have sunk so far into these slimepits is because people have not raised their voice loud enough for people to hear. The bulk of the church has been afraid to speak out because we would be thought of as intolerant. It's time to take back what the enemy has stolen, that takes courage but it also takes uniting as one voice against the lies and distortions of an evil generation. It is a spiritual battle but if we are led by the spirit, we will be speaking out.

Thanks for the response. Coming out and being separate is the end-time strategy of God to bring Babylon down.


Hi Jay
Three things I want to add to your list...
1) Your statement:  **Pornography and masturbation to a married man is cheating on his wife.**  This applies to a married woman too.
2) Masturbation for a single person is sin as it is self-worship.  It is also very dangerous... as it is in the height of orgasm that demons are able to enter. This includes fornication... this is why the Bible says that the marriage bed is protected... yes?
3) The newest form of masturbation invented in the last 10 years or so is Cyber-sex.  It is adultery as it is performed with a partner on line, but really an aid to bringing yourself to orgasm.... so also a form of masturbation.... and very addictive.
You are right our war is against the sin and not the sinner... and we really need to remember this... We fight not against flesh and blood but demonic forces and powers... yes?
Some like to live within the sound
Of church or city bell
I long to run a rescue shop
Within a yard of hell!

Hi all,

Maybe you guys can help me. On my next edition of the latter rain list I had put in this paragraph:

"We are of the household of faith. That's a good thing but that includes the outer court, the Lord wants us all to enter into the holy of holies. Grace can take us a long way but we think we have freedom in Christ to sin, don't delude yourself, what you reap you will sow. Grace is here to make up the difference between our spiritual nature and the fleshly one; Jesus did that on the cross, this is our positional holiness. Grace fulfills the law but it is God's Holy Spirit here on earth that delivers us from sin, we are then to exhibit the fruits of the spirit working in our lives. Grace is not all there is if faith and holiness are requisite to spiritual fulness, all aspects of sanctity need to work together for good. It is in recognizing sin and having the power to abstain, as well as loving those that do not have the power. Jesus died for all, the reconciliation extends to the whole human race."

In there are a few controversial remarks, one is about "all of grace", which always seem to have some people confused, but the remark I make about the reconciliation extending to the whole human race has me a little concerned. I need to have things right in what I say, we all do, this one needs some discernment.

I was concerned about the remark all last week, even though I had finished what I wanted to send out. Then last night I attended Bible study at church and the pastor was going over things like sin, salvation, sanctification and glorification. He listed reconciliation over on the salvation side of things, in short, we are not reconciled to God unless we are saved. Actually I think that that makes sense but this is not what I said, nor what I see in the Bible. I mentioned that the death of Jesus (on the cross) was for all and the reconciliation was for all of humanity, not for just the elect chosen.

What do you think? Clues of course are found in writings of Paul, especially:

"Romans 5:10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."  (KJV)

Interesting there for while the word "reconciled" in verse 10 is also used in the New American Standard translation, the word "atonement" found in verse 11 is translated "reconciliation' there. So is atonement and reconciliation the same thing? Now I am really confused.

Here is another verse:

"Colossians 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. 22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"  (KJV)

So, if we continue in the faith, we are truly reconciled? What it seems to say is that all the world is reconciled to God through the death of His son but it is faith that keeps us there. Is that what we are usually taught? I don't think so, maybe it is splitting hairs but I think that it has profound implications on how we treat people. George Bush teaches by example, not to love our enemies but to bomb them. Didn't Jesus die for Muslims as well as the Christians. I believe so, but we generally dismiss these people, we don't love them like Jesus said, we hate them and condemn them to hell. That is obviously wrong, maybe we all agree, I don't know.


Hi Jay
Yes I to believe the word of God, that His Son died for the whole world, and with the death of his Son I am reconciled back to The Father. That is the whole point of the word of God , THE GOOD NEWS! That with the death of his Son my sins were forgiven, there is nothing more that I can do, but believe in The son and what God did for all of us ,I don't have to be afraid of God any more, Why because  all my sin is forgiven, so does that give me the right to go and sin? No as Paul said God forbid, but is the sin nature still in me yes, so when I sin  I am walking by my flesh, and not by the Spirit, because when I am walking by the Spirit I can not sin. We have the freedom at any time to go to The Father with out any sense of guilt, we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, not to go and tell people that they are sinners but what God the Father did for them through Jesus the Christ.

Yes we are to show the love of God to all People we are to pray for our enemy's, The word of God does not tell us what we are or how to pray for our enemy's, but I thank we are to pray for the veil of there eyes to be opened to the truth of the Good News, I believe that the Whole world will be saved but in the appointed time.  By showing the love of God to people that will draw people to us and when they really know that we love them from our hearts they will want to know what it is we have then we can open our mouths and tell them what God did for us and for them , who does not want to know the Good news that they have been forgiven, and if we do sin we have a lawyer standing before the almighty saying that He died for us and paid the price for sin. So do we sin yes we all sin but there is the open door to go to the Father and ask for forgiveness for our sin, I think he looks at us and says sin what sin your brother has already paid the price for your sin. We are not sinners but saints of the most high. Un till we really believe it in our hearts we will not change but are in bondage to sin, because The Father tells us the truth will set us free.

But its a heart thing not a head thing.

Just a few things to ponder, It begins with me in my home at the stores  at my job in the fellowship of believers so forth and so on.

Jackie Nieto

Jay, first thanks in inviting me to your forum
Jay, your response on reconciliation is in line with God's Word. God sent Christ Jesus to be exclusive. In essence He came and died for all people. But then He is inclusive. Meaning that only the ones who accepts His reconciliation or atonement will experience eternal life. Atonement is in the Outer Court, but then there is the Holy Place and Holies of Holies. I learned so much concerning these three levels when I study and wrote through the inspiration of Spirit of Truth the syllabus which is on CD. If we could get a glimpse of these teachings we could better understand how the Mosaic Tabernacle identifies Christ but also is equated to the three fold being of man. The CD is free and there are approximately 20 syllabus and is series 1. It is so important that the Body of Christ come into a clear knowledge regarding our eternal destiny and what is required to have this life. Grace is being overstated giving people a false sense of security regardless of their life style. But there is also the situation where people are living defeated because they do not understand how God has designed man (generic) to assist self to live victorious with Christ's Spirit being instructed by Spirit of Truth. Paul's teachings largely center on man's three fold being as well as the Old Testament prophetic teachings as both reveals the divine nature of the Triune God.


Hi Beloveds --
I too am one who has recently been led of the Lord to return to this little fellowship -- maybe for just such a discussion.  :)

In my faith-led travelings through the ancient writings of the Church, I discovered that to the Eastern Church *Grace* was taught not so much the *unmerited favor of God* as we have been taught -- (although that facet of meaning was also included in the understanding of Grace) - but Grace was understood as the *Divine Energies* of God. To understand the workings of Grace, new believers were taught that the very "Essence" of God was separate/holy/unpenetrable/unapproachable Light.... yet from that Utter/Awe-full Essence flowed forth the Divine Rays of God, the Divine Energies of God - the transforming Power of God, His Grace - and even as the Rays of the Sun are unseparable from the *Sun* itself (where does the sun end and its rays begin?) the Rays of His Grace radiate forth, touching all the earth in due season.

The Church was taught that we could *know* God through His Divine Energies, His Grace - indeed that we would be utterly transformed by those Energies (Grace) and that ultimately through Grace,  we would become *like* Him (not in His Essence/the Utterly Separate) but through His Grace - through the Divine Energies of His Radiance -- through The Son - "being the Brightness of (His) Glory and the Express Image of His Person" we are transformed by His Glory/Grace/Radiance (and not our works).

So for me, the struggle to understand the relationship between *Grace* and restoration, transformation, salvation and really glorification are all understood in the concept of the (unmerited) Divine Energies of God of God. Utterly separate from *my energies*, the Divine Energies only have effect upon and through me, when the toggle switch of faith is connected. If I am living and working in and through my own energies (in my understanding, the toggle switch is pushed down - making connection only through the mortal connections) then I am not in the mode to be able to receive the Divine Energies (Grace) of God -- only my energies are flowing through my body, and I am living and working in my own strength. But when Faith makes the connection, and the toggle switch of Divine Energies (Grace) is pushed in (causing the other side of the toggle to become disconnected -- for only one side or the other can be connected at any time) - then faith has made the connection for the Divine Energies of God to flow through m

In my spiritual understanding of the Kingdom, this difference of Divine Power vs. Human Power -- Grace vs Works - has become exceedingly clear -- and the foundation of that clarity was birthed by the understanding of *Grace* in a little more fulness than what I had been taught as its meaning... it is indeed the unmerited favor of God, but with that meaning also comes the Divine Power for the transformation that is truly a facet of the meaning of salvation.

The actual meanings of so many of the words that we think we know - or at least we know what we have been taught - are crucial for understanding the full meanings shared by our Beloved through His Scriptures. It is utterly amazing how much understanding is increased when the Holy Spirit brings into our path just a little correction in our thinking concerning even a word like *Grace*.  It is the same, with words like Salvation -- for there indeed, in so much MORE than what most of us have been taught.

Shared in Love,
Linda -- still the Beguine.

Hi Ruby, Jackie, Linda,

Yes, I think it is important to emphasize that there are levels in our walk with God and perhaps that includes everyone, especially the "lost," Jesus brought salvation to the sick, not the healthy. Salvation is a level, sanctification is another. It's interesting here about the outer court, who do we put there in this discussion, the whole world? I mean, the Jews were inside and the Gentiles were outside but at least at the court. Everyone is Gentile if you are not a Jew, that's the whole world. What prompted my thinking on all of this is the notion of universal salvation. We agree that salvation is for all but some have gone so far as to deny anyone going to hell. I can't go that far but getting me thinking on this is opening a new understanding about reconciliation and salvation. And you are right, the scriptures back it up.

What happens when grace is overstated is that it becomes cheap grace, the kind that crucifies Christ over again. This is an answer also to what Linda said too, there is more to grace, it includes an active energy that gives us the power that sanctifies, that power is available to everyone but not everyone avails themselves of the power. We all know that even many in the church deny the power. And it is like Jackie said, grace does not give us the excuse to sin, but in practice, Christians use grace to go their own way every time.

Did you know that right wing Christian America has incarcerated more of our people than any nation on earth? We have no good news of grace and reconciliation to tell them, only bad news, we lock you up for sinning. God's people fornicate, that seems to be OK to America but if you take drugs, you are locked up and treated as criminal. That's not correction, that is retribution, what is needed is Holy Ghost deliverance. If America is going to hell in a hand basket, it is because the powers to be in this country have not delivered Jesus' message of grace but of ignorance and judgmental intolerance.

Becoming clearer now, thanks.


Hello Jay, Jackie, prophetess, and my Beguine angel.  Praying for you Mary. Good thoughts y'all.  I would like to try to give my understanding.  Looking at grace---it is above all a transcendent act and deed of God's love and of the sovereign will that gives effect to His love.  As such it expresses His personal attitude towards mankind [reconciliation] and gathers up into itself all His holy perfection.

Since grace represents the personal attitude and action of God, [the Good News] what is its nature?  Most condescending favor and most generous bounty.  Both are implied.  So far as the former is concerned, grace is the practical expression of the Fatherly love which condescends to the weakness and frailty of man.  So far as the second is concerned, the term grace implies that Fatherly love goes forth to its objects with a wealth of benefaction that is in keeping with the infinite source from which it springs.  The favor of God is no easy and ineffectual attitude towards men. It means that the fullness of Divine perfection is put at their disposal.

So being from God no phrase can express the meaning of Grace.  If anyone is in love you do not take down a dictionary to find out its meaning.  But how much further can we get in dealing with these primary exercises---these primary elements in the life of the soul?  We cannot diagnose.  But there is nothing negative about it, nothing merely passive.  When we speak about the Grace of God there are so many who think Grace as favor, concilatoriness and kindly sentiment.  I want to say there is nothing in God that is aloof, nothing of mere composure, nothing of passive regard, nothing apathetic. Every attribute of God is a fountain of vitality and the throne from which flows the river of the Water of Life.  Grace is favor, but it means more than this.  It is holy love radiating from the soul of the Eternal into the soul of His children, transforming then to His likeness and equipping them for His service.

That is looking at the saved factor---our faith.  How frequently we hear longing souls say:  "I need more of the Holy Ghost," or, "I am waiting for the Spirit"; both phrases are surely inaccurate; it is not that we need more of the Holy Spirit, it is, rather, that He needs more of us; it is not we who are waiting for the Spirit, but, rather, the blessed Spirit who is waiting for us.  If there is Divine prerogative there is also human responsibility; if there is a Divine gift, there is also human reception. There must be a certain energy on the human side, cooperating with the inconceivable strength of the Divine.  That human power is faith.

And what is faith?  Faith is a two-fold constitution, the elements of which are in vital relation.  It is an attitude and a venture.  To sever the two is to destroy the life of both.  We can no more divide the attitude and the venture and preserve their vitality than we can sustain life by the separation of flesh and blood.

And what is the attitude in faith?  It is the upward looking of the soul to God.  'Mine eyes are toward the Lord.'  The soul looks upward into the face of God that it may discern His mind and hear His voice.

And the second element in faith is the element of venture and risk.  'I will walk in the paths of thy commandments.'  Having heard the Lord's will, risk it!  'Thy words were found, and I did eat them.'  When I have discovered the mind of the Lord I must turn His counsel into life.  I must incarnate it in conduct.  I must take any risk and every risk, and boldly walk in the appointed way.  The unity of these two elements constitutes the act of faith.  When these are present in the soul, the soul opens out to the wondrous incoming of the Almighty God.  When I am willing to risk, God is 'able to do.'  When I surrender, He can impart.  The greater my willingness, the richer the river of His grace.  If I lose my life I shall find it. 'According to your faith be it unto you.'  'He is able to do . . . according to the power that worketh in us.'

That power, that great love, that reconciliation, springs forth the quickening non ceasing heavenly places that is true Life Eternal unto our salvation.  The nature of grace in all its holiness, righteousness, and love is revealed in redemption.  While its saving energy is concentrated upon each individual who receives it, its operations include the entire universe, in so far as it shares the blessings or cooperates in the work of redemption.

Grace is more than mercy, grace is more than love; grace is the largest word in the Bible.  It is the greatest word, the most inclusive word, and holds in its contents more than any other word of human speech.   

Our Lord comes,


Hi Tim,

You sure know how to put words together. I think I am going to have to agree with the statement you make of grace being the greatest word. Yes, it is all inclusive, it is not the only word but embodies all that is good in any one of us. Sheer wisdom indeed. Thanks.



Greetings, all my brothers and sisters in Christ,

 Have been wanting to join in on our recent discussions on reconciliation, grace etc. but as usual as i waited and read the posts, which were just awesome in their depth and biblical knowledge, i came to the realization that the only thing i might be able to add was agreement and a most enthusiastic AMEN!!!

 I have long considered it a blessing that in my previous life (51 years as a worldly pagan)that i was not exposed enough to Christian teachings to have formed any doctrinal or denominational beliefs and knowledge. i thank God everyday for the way i was brought in to the family, which was very personal and absolute in bringing me into the reality of God's plan for our reconciliation.

  However knowing nothing other than my personal experience and new reality it took me awhile to learn God's precepts for gathering the knowledge necessary to live my new life as He would have me live it. Early on, through the constant ministry of the Holy Spirit, i was taught a very simple approach for living my new life so that i might live it to the fullest according to God's will. It was given to me in three parts and made known that even though i was being given these precepts in a most intimate and personal way they were to apply not only to me but to the whole body of Christ also.

1) Live by Grace...."My Grace is sufficient for thee"
2) Walk in obedience to His Word...."it is written"
3) Act in faith by the will and power of our Lord..."And ye shall do even greater things"

 i know this seems very simple, and it is, but without my brothers and sisters, Mary, Jay, Tim, the lightship crew, my local church etc. (Church Body)i wouldn't have been able to put these simple precepts into action. The facts are we need each other just as we need our Lord. We can only begin to live by these precepts on a daily and constant basis with the support of our new and ever growing and perfecting (ongoing process) Godly family.

 We have a responsibility to one another to share whatever knowledge we have attained, the results of our individual walks, and the love that grows from loving our Lord first with all our hearts' present capacity and future capacity which is as infinite as He is. We also have a responsibility to watch over one another with a loving discernment in matters of ignorance and deception, to constantly be honest with one another in our struggles and to be ready to give encouragement, spiritual and physical aid to one another.

  We are made ready to do these things by FIRST pursuing the most intimate and loving relationship with Our Father God, His Son Christ Jesus and The Holy Spirit, that we can each and every day. How do we do that, simple....Live by Grace...Walk in obedience...Act in faith. As this letter has come full circle so are the gates to the New Jerusalem,(great white pearls), so is the Day of our Lord, Praise God, Hallelujah, Come Sweet Lord Jesus! Amen

In His Service
jan w

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