The Republican Church
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Psalms 137:8
A lot of specific areas of eschatology in the news with Palin running and it gets me faulted with guilt by association from people that don't know me. Since we have been working around it for years, I thought I should say a few things. I am talking about the End Time Revival, Manifest Sons of God, and Joel's Army. People need to know. Being Christian doesn't make you Republican, ignorance does. God has always had His Bible truths and their fulfillments, and there have always been counterfeits.
Babylon the Great is the last day church that will be riding on the many headed Beast of Revelation. We see her in the political, religious, economic and military realms. While the Eagle head of the Beast of prophecy may clearly be seen as America, Babylon was always harder to identify. Not any more. We behold the Republican Church in all her harlot splendor.
The final revival is the restoration of spiritual truth that will take masses of people out of the darkness of Babylon and into the light. The counterfeit is already seen as a fanatical devotion to warmonger spirits and hysterical signs and wonders.
The manifestations of the sons of God are simply last day servants led by His Spirit to accomplish His purpose, revealed and unified. The counterfeit is led by fear, intimidation, deceit, avarice, self-righteousness and illiberality.
Something as evil and powerful as Joel's Army can have no counterfeit and there has never been anything like them. There are two forces at work here in Joel 2, one is the Northern Army and the other entrusted with the voice of the Lord. The Joel's Army that we hear about are described as strong people set in battle array, men of war, tight ranks, invincible. Did you know that hundreds of Iraqis are killed for every American soldier sacrificed? They are also described as climbing up on the houses and entering windows like a thief, many of us are already nervous after all those preemptive arrests the other week.
God's way for us to bring down Babylon is to give her back what she has been dishing out. That can be hard for one that is used to sharing Christian love. I know members of my own family, friends and neighbors have their part in Babylon and I am not open to the kind of derision that the Republican Church has for others. One thing I am going to do is laugh and let them know that they are right wing nuts. That's the best that I can do but we need a whole lot more than that.
Show her no mercy. When Babylon falls, the beast is crippled and will not rise up again until later, we have a window now. Counter the pride and arrogance of the Republican Church with confidence and authority. Blow the trumpet and sound the alarm loud enough that it overwhelms the immense lies against us. Since they have stolen the spiritual authority of the people, get back into church and reclaim all of them. They like to throw stones, throw them back. They like machine gun politics, fling arrows of truth at them, expose the violence, let them know that blood is on their hands and Jesus is coming soon to judge them.
End of discussion on these things, it can only be for or against and we need to move on, there is no consensus and certainly no healing of division. Now I would like to take on a couple of other topics taught in many Bible Colleges and Seminaries and that is dispensationalism and dominionism, starting with the former.
For those of you who do not know what dispensationalism is, you are much better off not knowing. I find it an incredible bore. The problem is that it may be the kind of false doctrine that is quenching the spirit in your church, so you may need to be listening up. I don't know how many of you have studied it but we could come up with something pretty definitive if we put our hearts and minds to it. To give you a head start, we discussed this on the lightship last year, so I copied and pasted some of that below the responses from this time. Get back to me.
Jay
Hi Jay,
Thanks for your mail.
Regarding your point about communists it must never be forgotten that the first Christians in a burst of enthusiasm shared all things in common. This wasn't about a central elite controlling the masses, it was about a voluntary desire to share. It had its problems and the form they attempted may not be the model for us to follow, but the central idea was that Christians in sharing a oneness of spirit should be tied together in their lives. Christianity is very egalitarian in its origins. It was for the 'poor of this world rich in faith'. The rich brother was to consider his lowness in Christ and the poor brother his highness in Christ. Whether rich or poor, bond or free, male or female we are all equal in Christ. We are not say 'God be with you' and turn away from people. We are called to give to those who ask. We read of woe being unto the rich who lived in comfort whilst others struggle in Jude. We read of high things being made low and low things being made high. It goes on and on and on for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
Capitalism is the human system the world has developed in accordance with the flesh and allows us to work without confronting our natures fully. It is about each man fighting for his own best interests (in scripture we are to look after each others) and competing. Due to the historical fear and problems of communism the third option of voluntary sharing is seen as being a form of communism. In fact capitalism and communism are very similar in practice in that both form central elites and both are centralised methods of organisation.
We are not to fight, because this world is not our world. Its organisations are not based upon Christian values. The kingdoms of the world are the kingdoms of men. Neither Russia nor the US are good and there is no real freedom in either country, although the US president makes a lot of noise about protecting freedom. What they are really protecting is the right of a few men to be rich. I read there are up to 300 illegal camps for the homeless in Florida alone. These are not free men,. Even when homeless you have no right to make a temporary camp to live in. You have no freedom or right to exist at all. Money and ownership is what gives you rights and freedom in the US.
Blessings.
Tim Woodall
Now that's what we are talking about, Tim. You truly have the mind of Christ.
What we are saying is that in the purest sense. Not the bastardized version that we see or hear about. Not since the first century have we had that purity but I see a Kingdom coming.
What they had in the early church was a concern for each other, they were family. It began with the Jerusalem Church and continued in all the best Christian groups. It is not just living in the Kingdom, it is living out the Kingdom as well, in our sharing, commitment to the poor and disenfranchised.
Can't say too much on it, you said it so well.
Jay
Jay,
I remember when Joe McCarthy was in Congress and having his investigations. The press made it appear that he was some sort of devil. In the intervening years I have come to the conclusion that he was right, that the government was filled with communists, and that communists were in control of the press and other institutions. Certainly it should be obvious by now that the government is a bunch of liars. The existence of the Federal Reserve is enough to prove that.
I am a prophet, and know the persecution that comes with being a prophet. I go where Holy Spirit directs me. If He says go to a certain church, I go. If He says stay home, I stay home. I cannot find an honest pastor or church leader. They all seem to be working their own agendas, not God's agenda. Nothing has changed since Jesus told the pharisees that they were like their father the devil. I have prophesied to pastors and to churches and to people in home groups. One home group here in California decided my prophecies were making people nervous. What God said was, "We are in a time of trouble such as the world has never seen before and never will again. Get close to me. I am your only protection." Also, I was interrupting the hosts schedule for the home group meeting!!! Not God was interrupting. I was interrupting.
I have challenged several people as you challenge them in your letter: Don't believe me or your pastor. Ask Holy Spirit. He knows everything. I have not had any takers so far. Everyone wants to argue. No one wants to sit still and listen to Holy Spirit.
If you haven't read "Escape from Christendom" I suggest you read it. It is on the Internet, so you don't have to buy it. Just Google it.
Also, if you haven't read "God Calling" go to www.twolisteners.org.
God Bless
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for that, I did find some good resources there.
Jay
dear Jay,
praise the Lord and thank you for your exaltation of serving the Lord..
in christ,
elle markman
elleternal
I needed that so much you just don't know. I feel like their is nowhere to meet people that think like you and I do. Keep up your FANTASTIC MINISTRY. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MURRAY BOYS GOOD SHEPHERD
CHURCH GRAVETTE ARK. I LOVE THE METHOD BUT SOMETIMES FEEL HATRED IN SOME OF THEIR OPINIONS BUSH IRAQ WAR ETC
WITH CHRSTIAN LOVE
YOUR FRIEND IN CHRIST
GARY W STEELE
Hi Gary,
And as well, you don't know how much I needed this message from you, or how much I appreciate it. It brings me to tears knowing that I am getting through.
When I first started my ministry, not just in the preparation of it so many years ago, but the actual writing, I was fearful. I knew that the Lord wanted me to address not only the remnant but the ones in all the ecclesiastical falseness and confusion. To me that was a little scary since people get so angry. They say that the best way to face your fears is to jump right in but it took me a while. I don't like to fight and have always been a little cowardly, but when the fight starts, I give as good as I get. Knowing that there are others in this on the same side as where we feel that the Lord wants us, is a great feeling.
Arnold Murray is someone I have never studied under so it is hard to evaluate him. If I see him on TV, I change the channel because from what I can see, he is an extreme Christian right fundamentalist, too dispensationalist, and I don't expose myself to that unless I am researching false doctrine. He seems like a nice guy and would probably take that as a compliment but it only translates into the hatred that you feel on those issues you mention. From what I heard from others, he has already wrongly predicted the second coming twice but since I cannot verify that, it would not be right for me to call him a false prophet. I am sure that Jesus loves Arnold Murray just like He loves you and me. My message to him would be the same as to others like him, get out of Babylon and start teaching the truth before it is too late.
Jay.
Hi Jay
I would comment, but I am persuaded by what you are saying.
Blessings
Geoff
Hi Geoff,
That is all the comment I need. It makes it all worthwhile. Thanks for that.
Jay
hello...long time no see
Russell A.Durose
www.prayer-revival-initiative.com
http://portugalfire.wordpress.com
Hi Russell,
Yes, long time. It says a lot that you would lend your name to these things. Thanks for that, it reveals the kind of courage needed.
It seems that I will be doing some pages for a Brazilian audience. We too are committed to revival. I was wondering if you were interested in possibly making a contribution to that in the form of some of your writings.
Let me know.
Jay
Keep it up my brother. Blow the trumpet in Zion sound the alarm in God's holy mountain. You are placed on this earth to do so. You have my prayers.
respectively Mother Stella
Missionary to Africa
My prayers are with you too Mother Stella,
Being a missionary truly sent by God is the most rewarding work in the world, bar none. May more with your spirit and love be sent into the field. Thank you for all you do.
Jay
Hi Jay,
I love reading your thoughts. I want to comment on this one.
I have found that the beast has a name, and it is narcissist. The beast cannot love any other but its self.
As far as the churches go, you cannot save that which doesn't know it is lost. Even Jesus said the righteous do not need saved. He tried to teach in the church. He wasn't well received. Instead He hung with sinners. (Pun not intended, but it has several truths, so I left it.)
I believe you are right about being God's Kingdom being within our reach as well. Jesus taught that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us. Either you believe Him or you don't. It's that simple.
Love in Christ,
Glenda
You are right that the Beast is narcissistic. That wouldn't be so bad if they could treat others the same way but unfortunately, it doesn't go that way. Since I am embracing the remnant kind of teaching, the church held captive in Babylon is a good analogy for John in Revelation and is expressly for us in these last days. Jeremiah 27 speaks of the "nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him." This suggests a voluntary yoke, they wear their chains willingly.
What I am trying to teach is the reason why they are lost, they are held captive in their own delusions. Too many people leave the church thinking they are fleeing Babylon and then take their Babylonian baggage with them. It doesn't work.
Jay
Justice is the process which God built into the very constructs of our reality. It manifests itself, and can not be escaped. Those who thirst for justice shall be satisfied. Justice manifests itself in those who seek Justice. But often it will take you before the hoard, which seek to circumvent justice for their own favor. This is why all men and women of Justice come up against nearly insurmountable odds. But those of faith speak, and they speak the truth. They become the manifestations of Justice, and prevail.
2. O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. (Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)
As America invaded Baghdad in 2003, the Lord called me into His midst. I spent the year in weeping and tears, repenting for the pride and selfishness of America. He gave me an inscription, and sent me back to the church in which I had sought Him. I went to them, asking for a discernment of the inscription "BO-1260". It was God's promise to transform me into a prophet over the next 3 1/2 years, and to bless my writing in the spirit of the vision of the future. I wanted this to check the intergrity of the spirit which was upon me.
They laughingly discerned it to be a stock number of a sermon tape in their library, one on Luke Chapter 19, Jesus kicking the money changers from the Temple. I returned the next week seeking further discernment, and they were no longer laughing. Over the next four weeks they set their faces against me, and ran me out of the church. They were the "Luke Warm" Church, and the corporate church.
The inscription, "BO-1260", was symbolic of God's promise to transform me into a prophet over the next 1260 days. "B" is the pregnant woman. "O" is the baby she carries. "BO" is the pregnant woman of Revelations, and the "baby" is the vision of the New Millenium, or the new age. About 1260 days later, I was restored to my normal mind. I had written half a million words about the vision of the future. And about that time, Barrack Obama declared his candidacy for president.
The Christian Church in America is by in large aligned to the right wing politics of global domination. They are very in vain, and in error. They are spiritually impoverished, and do not yet know it. They are in debt, and can not accept it. They are in bed with the beast, and will not accept it. Yet.
The coming years will seperate the sheep from the goats. The faithful sheep among Jews, Muslims, and Christians are being led to the higher pastures of Baha' u'llah and the Bahai Vision. Those who stay in the world will be greatly stressed and tested.
Sonyata
VISION RECEIVED APRIL 12, 1997
I was on a large plain, it seemed to go on forever. I couldn´t see the edges, but I know I was somewhere very high.
The clouds seemed so close to where I stood that if I reached out, I could touch them.
I began to look around insistently, but all I could see was this plain covered with beautiful grass that was all the same height.
The sky was calm and beautiful and there was a feeling of peace in this place.
There were no buildings, no trees, no flowers, just the earth and the sky, As I continued to look around me, I saw a change in the sky, the clouds began to roll to the sides, and I saw a city come down from the clouds, It continued to descend until it reached the ground where I stood.
I saw amazed by what I saw, and I began to study it intently.
I have travelled this world alot, but I have never seen anything like what I was seeing.
The entire structure was so beautiful that it took you breath away.
It was all white and it shone so brightly that one could barely look at it.
It was so large that if I stood at one corner and looked to see the other end, I could not.
As I was trying to find an entrance into this place, I studied the walls and couldn´t make out what they were built from.
It seemed that it was built as a whole, all from one giant mass.
There were no bricks, there were no cracks in the walls, there was no mortar.
As I stood, to my left there was a building that was very tall, and smaller buildings continued along the wall.
It seemed like the entire city was under one roof. Although the buildings were different, they were connected between themselves.
As I continued to look, I saw the stairs that led to the entrance, and they shone brighter than anything I´ve ever seen.
They were gigantic, as was the wall that surrounded the city.
No one would be able to force their way into this place. I don´t know what sort of material it was built from, but I got the impression that those inside, could see out.
Wanting to find out what waited inside, I began to climb the stairs. I didn´t get very far, because I heard a powerful voice which drowned out everything else.
"Stop!" Even if I would have wanted to continue walking I could not. It was as if I was paralyzed.
"Tell my people, that their worship toward Me must be not out of fear, but out of love.
Of what use will it be to them if I would tell them when the final hour will strike?
What they must do is worship wholeheartedly. I have already sent them a guide.
They have my Word.
In My word it has already been revealed that I will come as a thief in the night.
Tell them that concern over tomorrow should not be found in them.
They must be faithful, and fight the good fight.
Love me as I have loved them, living in love.
Behold destruction is fast approaching, but I will not hesitate to be protector for my chosen.
Those that sow mercy, shall receive mercy from Me.
Tell my people not to worry about the seasons, but meditate on how they will stand before Me.
Urge them to prepare for the day when I will show my power. Look!"
When I turned, I saw a small child that was trying to climb the stairs. He tried, but because he was too small he could never make it to the next step.
His laughter however echoed throughout like a bell. Even though he kept falling, he showed no sign of sadness, but just kept trying.
"Did I not leave you this parable as an example?" Then everything disappeared.
DREAM RECEIVED APRIL, 1997
I knelt beside my bed to pray, as I do every night before going to sleep.
After finishing my prayer, I opened my eyes but I was no longer in my room. Instead, I found myself in a forest.
I looked around and to my right I saw a man, dresses in white, who pointed his finger and said, "See and remember."
It took me a while to find what he was pointing at.
It was a small bear who seemed half dead lying on the ground. As I continued to watch this bear, it began to breathe deeper.
With every passing minute it seemed to revive itself, and, as I watched, it also became angrier.
It then began to grow. Soon it was larger than the forest floor and as it grew larger it continued to become angrier.
It then began to paw the ground, so that when its paw would bit the ground, the earth would shudder.
The bear continued to devastate all that stood in its path until it came upon some men with sticks trying to fend it off.
By this time the bear had grown so large that it simply crushed the men underfoot and continued its rampage.
I was stunned by what I saw and asked the man standing beside me, "What does this mean?"
"At first, they thought the great bear was dead," the man said, "As it will begin to stir once again, they will consider it harmless.
Suddenly it will grow strong once more with purpose and violence.
God will blind the eyes of those that continue to trample on the sacrifice of Christ´s blood, until the day the bear will strike swiftly.
This day will catch them unprepared and it will be just as you saw."
The man said, "Tell My people the days are numbered and the sentence has been passed.
If they will seek My face and walk in righteousness before Me, I will open their eyes that they may see the danger approach.
If they only look to the approaching danger, they too will be caught up and trampled underfoot.
Only in righteousness will they find safety."
Suddenly, I was once again by myself in my room, on my knees, with sweat covering my face.
I have spoke to you as a father speaks to his own children.
I have shown you what will be that you may prepare your hearts and strengthen your spirits for the day of battle.
Dark days are soon coming upon the earth.
Days of mourning and great sadness.
I tarry for those who seek me with a pure heart.
I give strength to those who seek me continually.
The lawless one has been prepared, and he is ready to reveal himself.
He awaits his release.
He will come with a lying tongue and deceiving words.
I will protect My own, and I will deliver them even out of the clutches of the enemy.
Those that will be strong until the end, those that will be called to be living testimonies for my name´s sake will receive the crown of life.
Let righteousness be your banner, and My word be your guide.
Be rooted in the truth. As the dawn comes to chase away the night, so will the darkness rule only for its allotted time.
Be strong in the knowledge that I protect and watch over all who are Mine. Amen.
A GREAT BEAR
Two days before taking my father to the hospital, I heard his voice in the early morning hours.
" I saw something." As usual I got my recorder and went to his bedside. He would not let me record it.
I don't remember everything he said, but I would like to share with you that which I do remember.
My father stated, "The Lord showed me a very large bear. It was as big as a building, and it began to do battle with an unarmed man."
"Do you see what I have shown you" a voice said,
"This is how it will be when the hardships come over America. No one will be able to defend her.
Only those that trust in Me will be spared.
Everything will start as a heavy rain on a sunny day. At a time you least expect it."
There was more, but I do not remember the rest.
Virginia Boldea
----------------------------------------
The Prophecies and Visions of Dumitru Duduman
Hand of Help web site:
http://www.handofhelp.com/
or:
www.telusplanet.net/public/tsgibson/propheticword.html
Hello Jay!
What do you think about the words above??
God bless you
Werner
Hi Werner,
The first thing that strikes me is that if it is God speaking through someone here, why He didn't use complete paragraphs to make it easier to understand. If I somehow make through the different things here though, the first vision seems very pretty, then we see a nebulous building and visions of general truths already taught by Jesus in the Bible and a small child that falls but keeps trying and the story is cut short. I had a much more interesting dream last night and it could have been from God too, but certainly no revelatory news flash that I could call a vision.
The second vision is more interesting because it confirms what others are seeing about America being taken by surprise and judged for her sins. The obvious references from Joel in relation to the bear being part of those prophecies is especially interesting, I see no reason to doubt it.
If you are asking me to somehow validate him as a prophet, I think that he stands the test only because there is not enough here to suggest that he is not one. Take comfort in that because I get a lot of people telling me that they are prophets and then saying some real dumb things.
Thanks and God bless you.
Jay
Hi Jay,
I am sure many people in the UK think it is wierd that America still has people who would call others a "socialist commie fake" and not expect us to laugh out loud at them. I thought they only existed in very old and bad movies, so this is somewhat of a surprise. Then to expose his own ignorance by having a pop at the Biblical Latter Rain with no understanding of the distinction between that and the Latter Rain movement of William Branham fame, I am assuming that is what he means, would seem at least foolhardy. If it wasn't so desperately sad it would be very funny.
But that letter contained a giveaway word of accusation which was "fake", and it should alert us to the fact that there are some who justify their hatred because they wholeheartedly believe they are the ones who are genuine and true. Wierder and wierder. And sociopathic? When God says the things we judge others on are the very things we are guilty of ourselves, I think it has to come into sharp focus with a letter like this one you received. Dear me.
I have often thought that regardless of our Christian fellowship preferences, truth is truth, and things are bound to go wrong somewhere if we start denying it when it gets uncomfortable. For one thing, the truth stands without support because facts are facts. If you want to convince others of a lie you have to work damned hard to make it stick, diverting massive resources. We have all seen that in the political arena. If you have truth on your side though, you just need patience and it will come out sooner or later, with a little prod in the right direction here and there as you work in your own field towards justice, exposing the lies.
In the world of modern prophets, I have known for a long time that there is much herding going on behind a popular opinion, and not enough guts to address the Truth which God reveals to us as individuals. To me, the place where truth collides with a comfort zone is precious and pregnant with revelation: a place not to be avoided but explored in the safety of the prayer closet. But what seems to happen is that prophets are so consumed with the desire to be authenticated by so-called respected leaders in their field that they have forgotten they need the stamp of approval from God and Him alone. If you have that, you can go with a message that no one else has ever spoken but nevertheless screams "Truth" like a blazing banner of fire. I think that is what we need right now. It will take some courage, repentance of the denial which has infected us and also the desire to "be seen" as genuine, without necessarily being so.
On the Third World point and persecution, in my heart I see the poverty of nations as an important historical factor in revival, and that at those times persecution happens because people really shine and stand out as Christians. We could all shine and stand out if we would do what the Lord is asking us to do regardless of our circumstances, but in the more affluent parts of the world we don't much want to let go of the comforts we have become accustomed to. So how will God move? None of us is guilt-free on that.
But the other day I heard something surprising on the news. A study on life-expectancy had been done on people in an area of India compared to two areas of Scotland (Scotland being home of many good socialists, God bless em all). Anyway the Indian study showed life expectancy to be 63 years, the study on a Scottish suburb of Glasgow was 70-something, seventy five I think, but in Glasgow itself it was...wait for it...53. That is scary. Poverty, poor diet, bad living conditions and high drug and alcohol consumption are all things that spring to mind as causal factors.
Maybe this is the place where the fire of revival will take hold in Britain. We can hope!
Much love from Mary
Hi Mary,
You are just full of hope. Have been since I first met you, you are not about to lose it either.
I have the next edition almost done and then I read your letter. It sounds almost like an answer to that one because I am contrasting the authentic with the counterfeit. This is an intense one because I don't want to pull any punches, a sneak preview, it will be on the republican church.
"The poverty of nations as an important historical factor in revival." I believe that too, maybe more so in that it is "the" most important factor. And I believe that it will come through the third world also. The best that we can come up with in America for revival is a kick in the teeth.
I am going to have a lot of fun with this next one.
Jay
The Kingdom
Hi everybody,
There are a couple of things I have been pondering that I shared with the group a while ago. One is to the time that the disciples questioned Jesus in Acts 1, about restoring the kingdom to Israel. What Jesus effectively told them was that it was none of their business, it was in God's power but that we would receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon us. The other is the problem that I have with the current views of various dispensationalists in the church. I believe that they are somehow connected. I am taking a class in grace and want to share some things that have been going through my mind.
I have always taught that the kingdom is yet to come but it is also here. Since we have the law in our minds and written in our hearts right now as a child of God, I thought there have been partial fulfillments of the kingdom message. The class that I am taking teaches that there is the dispensation of grace and the dispensation of the kingdom during the millennial period and it is wrong to mix the two in any way.
Since there has been so much written for and against dispensationalism, I should say that it would be an error not to understand that there have been different ages in the history of God's people, like the age of the law and the age of grace. To call them dispensations is true and proper. I am however not what is called an ultra-dispensationalist. Here we see a lot of thinking about God's Kingdom being established by Christians like George Bush ridding the world of wicked people for the glory of God and riding on a white horse into Jerusalem.
John the Baptist preached that the kingdom was at hand but we have to realize that there has been a two thousand year interval since then. This interval has been called a parenthesis in time. God gave us the age of grace to graft the Gentiles into the vine and give them an inheritance under the promise given to Abraham. Good and fine. The kingdom was forfeited by the Jews when they rejected Him as King and once the message was again rejected by the Jews in the early church, Paul and others went to the Gentiles. Since the foreknowledge of God rules out any chance of accidental happenstance here, it all looks like a divine script carried out by Jesus, the disciples and the Jewish people. No disrespect intended but here is another division in the church and I want to understand where the truth lies.
Anyway, any thoughts?
Jay
Peace, grace and mercy be multiplied unto you Jay and all those who visit this site. I know that the Kingdom is already here because the King lives within us. I remember years ago when I first accepted Christ before I fell back into sin, the Lord showed me a beautiful illuminated city and it was inside me. I can't explain it but I knew the kingdom of heaven was within me but I also know that the New Jerusalem will come down from God out of Heaven. Our God is awesome!! We'll never figure it all out.... What about the times of the Gentiles? How do you think it is tied in to all this? Let me know. Lifting up up my brother!!!
Cindi
Hi Cindi,
Right on track here, this is my point exactly. Actually a further read of the book on grace that I am into mentions this part of the kingdom as the only part he seems to acknowledge, Jesus as being King over our hearts. That is a glaring inconsistency in my view, a contradiction that I cannot overlook when I start writing my papers on it for the class. If he says that there can be no commingling and then acknowledges even a little part of the kingdom may be here now, it can lead to others parts as true now as well.
The times of the Gentiles are that Parenthesis that I mentioned before. I got a letter last week with someone criticizing me because I am a social democrat and Christians should be part of a theocracy. While that may be good individually, it is not time for a theocracy yet in government simply because of the fact that we are in the times of the Gentiles. Since the restoration of the two houses of Israel being united is not part of this age, God gave the world powers over to the Gentiles to govern. In other words, we are not yet part of the Kingdom of God where Jesus has put all governments under His feet.
I agree, we will never be able to figure it all out. I do believe however in that progressive revelation concept we mentioned where little by little God reveals His plan for us so that we can identify where the true people of God are actively working together to perfect the Church.
Jay
Hi Jay and everyone,
I've been away from my computer for a couple of days and just got to read the posts.
I think that the time or dispensation , (I believe they're the same in meaning) of grace will be as long as there is a believer in Christ Jesus as Lord and savior upon this earth. 2 Peter 3:8 tells us that one day as with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. I see the time here being a manifestation of The God of Mercy. His prolonging coming is for the salvation of who so ever will believe in Him, shall be saved. I truly believe that He has a divine plan and it has been from the beginning of time for all mankind to come to Him. He is a covenant keeper, so His covenant with the Jewish people will stand. I see that clear in His word. Nothing there has changed. But I see clear in Gal. 3 that we are all children of God by Christ Jesus. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, (this is my favorite part)lol neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. I feel that our very presence in this earth holds back God's wrath and judgment. And believe that the next dispensation will be judgment.
I don't know the true heart of Mr. President nor do I know the true heart of any man. I pray for him because the word commands me to pray for those in authority. I see him as just a man but I believe that if it's just to bring forth one link to the fulfillment of the divine plan, he could be sitting in this position for that very reason. But I don't know, maybe just to awaken some to pray. I hate war and feel that we should always be striving to live at peace, but just like I said before I don't know the answer here. I do know and believe that in 1948, a man was placed in the President's seat for a divine and specific purpose to make Israel a Nation. God's plan is so above my natural mind and unless He reveals it to me, I'm a lost puppy. I know that it's all going to take place just as He said it will but I believe that so much of the kingdom coming forth is being done without many aware of it even happening. Even Harod and Pilate were used to bring forth that kingdom and they certainly didn't believe in Him as Lord and Savior.
Earlier, I wasn't implying that we're going to be beamed out of here before it all takes place. I was merely implying that I believe that we as believers giving ourselves unto Him in prayer and standing in the gap for the unbelievers. Like Aaron pleading the cause for the people, changed God's mind from consuming them with fire. Numbers 16:44-49. Our cry to God makes a difference in times and events.
Love you much, Leslie
Hi Leslie,
These responses are really great, I hope we are all learning.
This is where dispensationalism departs, (emphasis on "ism") The period of grace is peculiar only to the age from Calvary to the Kingdom, I would suppose even the 7 year period in between. The Israelite period coming before was the age of the law. Think of it this way. During the age of law, if you did good works, God would bless you. In the age of grace, God has already blessed you , now go and do good works. In the Old covenant, good works were required, in the new Covenant, good works are a responsibility, not an option but a response to the salvation we get from free grace through faith. Like St James said, without works, faith is dead being by itself. In the Old, they had to earn salvation, in the New, it is a free gift.
Dispensationalism teaches that the Kingdom is supposed to go back to the works system, it will be a reign of law. The book here teaches that the scripture of putting God's law in our minds and hearts is part of the kingdom age, not the church age. You disagree, so do I.
As far as prayer for the leaders of our country, I pray also. I pray a lot more however for the ones that are truly doing God's will, especially by bringing the gospel of the Kingdom to the poor. People like George Bush may be bringing us closer to achieving the divine plan of God in the long run but his power does not come from above but from below. His is the god of mammon whether he gives the glory to Jesus Christ like he says he does, or not. It is the unrighteous Gentile world powers that march onto Armageddon, including the West, Jesus will intervene somehow and put all these powers under His feet.
In the long run, maybe it doesn't matter for some people, for me it does. God's will will be done regardless but I started studying end-times from the very beginning and feel called to it. We are promised a blessing by reading the book of Revelation but more by hearing and doing what the words say. I think that it true with whatever God has given us. That is where I am but I am a lost puppy without God's revelation too. This is one of those subjects, I am very curious. You have probably come a long way since you were saved, so have I. When more is given, there is more responsibility. Stay where God has called you. While your at it, pray for me too.
Jay
Blessings All, We know that the kingdom of God does not come in observation but that it is in you! Even from the beginning God said it and it was, is, and will be. The Lord of Hosts doesn't change, even from the beginning it was His Word that framed the heavens and the earth. What I am trying to get at is that their has always been a Promise leading to a Destiny. As the Lord had asked me once, "are you a n Aristocrat?", which basically means are you a member of a governing nation. Isaiah 9:6,7... ..and the government(empire) shall be upon His shoulder.... Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Their has been an order that is established after the order of Melchizedek, "without beginning or end", our life is hidden in Christ, we know that when Christ appears that we shall "know" Him because we shall be like Him. We know that a Jew is one that has received the inward circumcision and whose praise is of God and not in man. Even unto this day their are those that are in and out of the Water, the key is that we have to understand we will enter the Promised Land in our obedience. Obedience is better than sacrifice. I'm not much of a dispensationalist since I found that even in the garden Adam and Eve walked with the voice of God, the dispensation of God's grace has never changed. The atonement of His blood has permeated the earth since the beginning and will continue in seedtime and harvest as long as the earth remains. Of course we are not of the earth we are "New Jerusalem", those born from above. Love you in the Lord, Bro. Greg
Hi Greg,
You make a good point that the Kingdom will not come with observation. The school is pleasantly liberal on this, the paper that I have to write when I get to this chapter is whether or not I agree with the writer's views on the Kingdom teaching not applying to us in this age. As we have seen, I do not and there are happily others here that do not. We are not graded by the answer we give but on how well we defend our position through scripture. You make a good point, one that will back up my own views.
There are of course many scriptures to support the view that the Kingdom is to come. I think that the verses you refer to in Isaiah is a couple of them. I also wonder if the whole history of mankind since Adam was one of grace. There have been other things that come into play, like the age of law and innocence and all that but God is a lot smarter than we can imagine. His mind is so above ours that we cannot even come close to understanding these things except to the extent that He gives it to us. Certainly God has been showing His grace from the beginning but we don't want to confuse grace with mercy. Was God showing Noah and His family grace or mercy? I think that staying Abraham's hand from killing his son was very gracious, so were many instance in the O.T.
I don't know. Dispensationalism seems too much like God in a box to me. The more I look into it, the more flexible I am on it and the more I see how rigid the exponents of it are.
Jay
Hey Jay,
You really touched on some thoughts that I have been trying to digest. One of which is whether since Adam that we've been under grace. What comes to me is that even though Adam and Eve had sinned, God covered them by providing a sacrifice. The more that we see that God speaks to us in types and shadows, the more that it enhances the painting from the Master Painter. When I realize that God's grace is His "favor" and that He is the Beginning and the End and the Word was made flesh to tabernacle or dwell among us the more I see that the Word is nigh unto us, in our hearts and in our mouth. I believe that Noah spoke the Word to a perverse generation and built an Ark signifying the "rescue" or "salvation" of souls in Christ or the Word, in a sense Noah was the Word made flesh...Gen. 6:9 "Noah was a just man and perfect (I believe his heart was perfect in the sense that he did not lean on his own understanding) in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Noah found favor or grace with God! Job was perfect also before God and this again was before the sepuagint was written. Zacharias and Elisabeth were blameless before God, walking in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord...this was under the Law. Today there are those who believe they are under grace but do not know the grace of God. To know the grace of God is to forgive and forget those who have offended you, if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven...and when you read about the unpardonable sin that no one really knows (many say its blashemy or cursing God) but I believe that it is unforgiveness that shuts the door to salvation or Gods grace. Sorry, I'm kinda getting off course You can't even see the kingdom unless you have been born again Jn.3:3. You can't enter into the kingdom unless you have been born of the Water and the Spirit. Jn.3:5. I tend to believe that if you cast out demons with the finger of God, no doubt the kingdom of God has come upon you, Luke 12:31. Where is the finger of God? I believe God wrote the 10 commandments with His finger. Some say that its not polite to point, however when God points His finger demons scramble!!! What is the kingdom like? Luke 13:20, "It is like unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till it was all leavened." (BUT beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, leaven is a modifier, they try to add to the Word). I really like how this parable talks of 3 measures of meal, Father Son & Holy Ghost, but also the 3 feasts of the Jews, Passover, Pentacost, Feast of Tabernacles. I believe that this is a type of our salvation or God's grace that has never changed. Passover...the blood covering, Pentacost...The power of God...& Feast of Tabernacles or God's peace or rest. "Noah" actually means "consolation" or "comfort". In closing Jay I believe the kingdom is...and is to come! God bless you and thank you for stirring the pot that we may all come together and dine!!! Love you in the Lord!
Greg
Hey Jay!! You stated that you wonder if the whole history of mankind since Adam was one of grace and I say yes it is. Think about Cain and Abel. Cain worked hard for his sacrifice to the Lord but Abel didn't work at all for his. God accepted the blood sacrifice not the sacrifice by works. God showed Abel grace by accepting his sacrafice. Man cannot or nor never has been justified by works. Thank God for His grace and mercy that endureth forever.....Luv you!!!
Cindi
Hi Jay and all, Early return from my break, will catch up on that later.
Jay as you know I have always had a problem with labels, theological and otherwise. They tend to throw me into a panic and dispensationalism is no different. But I read this and all the posts and went to Acts 1 to see what Jesus was saying about times and seasons.
What it seems to me is Jesus wasn't saying, you are not entitled to know this, so much as "you are not ready". The making ready consisted of the baptism with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, through which many would experience direct revelation of Who He Is, what is to come, and what God is doing with His people as a whole, plus the demonstration of His power through signs and wonders like never before.
I was thinking that, within the Jews, there is a portion who know who Jesus is, that He is come already. But that there is a majority who believe in a Messiah, but do not know Who He is yet, i.e., they rejected Jesus as "not the One".
God being a God of covenant is not stopped by that. If He was, most of the Christian church would be doomed. All the denominations have their idea of Who He is, and He always in their eyes fits their theology. All of the denominations (and other believers of Jesus) have some notion of Who Jesus Is, but do not identify Him as coming to them personally and powerfully, and conclude that neither has He come to anyone else personally and powerfully. Therefore the Jesus they think they know is not He. Even so, there is only One. We may not squeeze Him into our "box" as you say of the error of limitation, He is as He is. I am that I am.
But some of us do know by revelation Who He Is, and that He is. It is also not just an opinion, but an experience. That I think distinguishes the Jewish early church and messianic Jews today, from Jewish majority thought. It also distinguishes the remnant from modern church majority thought.
My feeling is that God has not cast off His people for their weakness, their unbelief or their miserable lack of knowledge. He has not cast off His people of the Jews, or His people of the gentile church paddling in the shallows of demon infested religion. He sees faith and the heart in which Jesus reigns, even if that same heart is blinded by ignorance, where the Light HAS entered, He may well reign.
I don't know where that all fits in this but I understand the difference between His Kingdom here already and yet to come, at the same time. Also within us and among us, both things add to the meaning of each, none less true in the present tense. There is a Spiritual Israel of now, and of promise. Completed Israel contains the fullness of the Gentiles plus the rest of natural Israel, I hope I have that right.
Got a lot to catch up on here.
God bless all, Love, Mary
Hi Mary and everyone, love you all.
Thanks to all who have been responding to the kingdom subject. I am working on my first paper for school on grace and will share it soon.
I have also been shy of labels. I cringe when someone calls me Reverend, don't like it a bit. It's enough when people are courteous enough to listen to me but I don't want their reverence, that belongs to God alone. Labels like dispensationalism, same thing. I don't want to be referred to as a dispensationalist simply because I believe that we are in the Christian era, an age of grace. Calling yourself a dispensationalist is like saying, this is the right way to think and if you think otherwise, you are wrong.
About the times and seasons, You may be right but I look at it that it was not because the disciples were not ready but that it had nothing to do with their time frame or for that matter, of any Christian teacher after them until the end of the age. Back to the Kingdom message as now, like you say, we shall receive power when the HG is poured out. And I agree with you concerning the revelation that God gives us, it is experiential, not merely an opinion. Faith increases when God reveals Himself to you in special ways.
And you do have it right as far as completed Israel. As far as my own thinking goes anyway. We may both find out we were wrong when we get to see the Lord but I do believe that the restoration is still in the future, not at the giving of the Holy Spirit. And I also believe that the Christian Church is the spiritual Israel. It is called "Replacement Theology" and considered false teaching by dispensationalists, but that must be because they try to put God in another box of supposed doctrinal completeness. This holds that the Church has replaced Israel in God's plan. I hold to parts of both thinking but not all and reject some, don't know what kind of label we could put that in. The Jews, like you say has not cast off His people. Just another stupid reason to divide us, where the truth is on that would take more study.
There is Israel of the flesh, namely the Jews and Israel of the Spirit which are the Christians who by faith have been grafted into the promise of Abraham. For now, that is good enough for me.
Jay
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