The Democratic Apostasy

September 23rd, 2008

Two years ago, a firmly entrenched and organized Progressive Movement elected enough Democrats to bring them a majority in the American House and Senate. That hasn't happened in a long time. We were firm then but others not so eager now in ending the occupation of Iraq. What happened after the Dems took over? Nothing but business as usual and now it's more war in Afghanistan and spilling over into Pakistan. This time, the situation is many, many times worse than if we had just left them alone and concentrated solely on the Al Qaeda terrorists from the start. The war in Iraq was not about freedom and democracy, it was about military bases and control of the region to protect U.S. economic interests. Who knows who is next but if South America is invaded, it could trigger an immense defeat.

The Democrats and the media on one hand talk about bringing troops home and on the other hand, side with the Republicans for a war without end. Nancy Pelosi is faulted for the apostasy as regards to Bush, in that she essentially reasoned that it would be better to join the Republicans than to oppose them simply out of "bipartisanship." The truth is that it has been most of the Democrats, even the newly elected ones that have defected. As soon as they were elected, the special interests took over, promises were broken and the blood bath continues. I want peace and apparently I am among the majority in this country. George Bush wants peace too but it is the peace of the graveyard, dead Muslims can no longer defend their homeland.

No one knows how bad the country has to get for Republicans and Democrats to realize that unrestrained corporate greed, globalization and de-regulation is to blame for our current economic crisis. Republican Christians are so pre-occupied with abortion and gay marriage finger pointing to recognize the truth in any case. The Democratic Party has to change big time for this country to get out of the hole. Hopefully, this crisis will bring them around this week but it won't be by giving George Bush a blank check to reward Wall Street for their incompetency.

Lasciviousness and licentiousness are personal issues between an individual and God. It is collective social action toward the victims of economic crisis and violence in the world that will stay the hand of God. Jesus has not come to condemn the sinners but to overturn the self-absorbed monied interests. While Republicans want to bail out the bankers who caused the mess and then pay it with middle class taxpayer money, some Democrats are pushing measures to save homeowners. Too bad, so far the Democratic apostasy has run too deep to extend compassion to those who need it the most, we no longer have the moral high ground in the Senate or the House. Instead of the rich absorbing the losses, Bush has redirected them to us when we are already having a tough time. Big surprise. There is divine judgment in all this but don't blame God, it was caused at the ballot box.

Will this change if we get democratic leadership in the White House next year? We can only hope. It was strong progressive leadership that tipped the scales for an Obama victory in the primaries. He showed wisdom in opposing the war and still says that he want to end it in a vague "phased withdrawal." Most of the country is still clamoring for peace but Obama's decision to choose Joe Biden as his running mate, a militaristic Republican in disguise that helped Bush get us into the Iraq mess to start with, looks like a big mistake. We shall see. Unless a positive attitude toward lasting peace can be seen from the Democrats, it could cause another Republican victory. The same deregulation policies and elitist attitudes that is even now bringing the U.S. to the brink of bankruptcy will certainly continue. There are a lot of bad spirits that could bring down the Democrats, a few of them are: militarism, elitism, religious hypocrisy, sexism and racism. People need to be involved as well as make a choice because if America is left with two right wings, it may never fly again.

I had wanted to move on to another subject but this one persists. The general series is on Returning to the True God and we have contrasted the Christians who have been taught to love each other against Christians who believe that killing each other is OK. The newsletters are generally a reaction to how the latter rain list responds so your input is welcomed. I sometimes get a little testy to people that get rude but all dialogue should be in mutual respect. I got some response on my Republican Church rant, see it below. Let's see where this one goes. Get back to me.



you must be stupid or just dont is the democratic pty tha wns to deny God
now i will unsubcribe

Keith Farrow

Hi Keith,

Well I have to admit to being a little stupid, your message is hard to comprehend. The closest I can make out is that the Democratic Party denies God. Correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry but I have to disagree, I don't see that at all. I know that the Republican Church would like it if everyone believed that but it isn't true and it is these kinds of lies that come out of there that makes such good examples of the delusion that I was talking about. Obama for example has a professing faith in Christ and many of the largest denominations have voted Democratic for years and will continue to do so. There are many Christian web sites that do their best to counter falsehoods like this.

We weren't discussing Democrats but you may be pleased to know that I would like to take them on next. Many people are disappointed in the Democratic leadership. I hope you see it, if you haven't already unsubscribed.


Mr Atkinson,

I don't know who you are or how you got my name for your mailing list.

Please remove me ASAP.

Alan J. Rouze

Hi Alan,

There is only one way to get on the latter rain list and that is to sign up for it. There was quite an interval between this series and the last one which I am sure brought about the confusion. To unsubscribe from the mailing list is just as simple, follow the link at the bottom of the messages.

Instead of opting out yourself, which is the only ASAP there is, you have decided to opt into dialogue. Since you don't really have a comment except that you don't know me, let me ask you a question.

Matt Damon has recently asked if Sarah Palin thinks that dinosaurs were around 4,000 years ago. It is a fair question since she is a Christian fundamentalist and wants to teach the American children her ways. I was wondering your thoughts on that. Since we are in dialogue, I will leave you on the list, you know how to get off, but I am hoping that you can answer this for us.


(there was no reply)

Dear Mr. Atkinson,

I am not sure what you mean by the statement, the Republican church is stealing the spiritual authority of the people. I have quit going to church, almost altogether. I have no use for the Christian church world. I am an MK(missionary kid)now grandmother.

I cannot stomach the games people play.

Sincerely, Viv

Hi Viv,

There were years in my own life where I thought that I was better off out of church than in it because of all the false authority and incorrectness. I have mellowed much since then and find that I can love and fellowship with other people regardless of their spirituality. For those weak in the faith, I have learned to witness to them best by lifting them up rather than putting them down. With this renewed attitude I find myself of much more use to the Christian church world. Since my last three churches before my present one have been part of the warmonger mentality of the Christian Right, I have since avoided them altogether.

When I speak of the spiritual authority being stolen, it was in the past tense, you have understood me in the present sense. Probably a better word than stolen is usurped. They have already usurped the authority, not something in progress. I was brought up in an evangelical church at a time where they seemed to have a spiritual authority in American society beyond the others and were fiercely against spiritual gifts. This was the kind of church that if you came down the aisle and confessed Christ and was baptized, ipso facto, you are a saint.

When I finally came to know the Lord in a more personal way, it was a pentecostal experience. I knew nothing of pentecostal churches but when I did it was in a negative way because they were so into spiritual gifts that they had virtually ignored the giver of the gifts. I saw neo-pentecostal movements forming into groups that served for them to have the spiritual authority in an activist way to effect change in the legislature.

These two extremes came together in the seventies and eighties to form the Christian Right. Not in any formal alliance but then there were the Falwells and the Moral Majority and others to lead the way toward a total government takeover. When they lost to Clinton, they organized big time and became ruthless in their strategies. Then George Bush comes along and makes the false promise to take on abortion and the rest is history.

This is pretty simplistic and I hope I am not faulted for any error in my evaluation, this is just how I saw it. We need to take that authority back but it must be in the power of the Holy Spirit. And it cannot include all the hedonism and lasciviousness that marks many of the churches today. We are to be a perfect Bride without spot or wrinkle. And we must repent of our own sins before we are able to justify any true spiritual authority of our own.

That was an excellent thought provoking question Viv, I am glad you asked it.

Yours in Jesus,


But I love my republican leaders............
who will give me back my children stolen from CPS
oh yes, go look up kidnapping by CPS

who will bring real reform
I wrote Barrack
who answered???????

Dont' do this to the confused Christian,
let them follow their heart. I am not confused, merely wounded, but a nation needs to follow it's own individual heart, not
like mindless lemmings doing the same thing.
God WILL have his way.
He will be fine despite you or me!
I promise.

God bless you bro..........................

Hi Me,

Great message,

Sad of course. I can well imagine in these days, Child Protective Services being as oppressive as stealing children and using tax payer money to have someone else raise them. I have seen news reports of that very problem where they don't take the time or compassion to look into the root causes. There are two sides to all these situations and we cannot know the specific circumstances here but my heart goes out to you.

Writing presidential candidates will not do it however, they can do nothing until the present Administration is finally behind us. You need real help and I pray you find it before then.

There are two choices in November and you are looking for reform. There is one party that is the champion of civil rights, human rights and social causes that will be able to deal with your problem and there is the other one.

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

Thank You,


I appreciate your thinking of me by sending me your ideas.(website)
Please do not send me anymore.
I do not believe what you believe in totality and have found Biblical errors in what you have written.
I do not believe that any church today has it all right and they all can be lumped into the same catagory, "A little truth and a lot of deception" Satan is much smarter than we can imagine.
Christ has a Church out here and only he knows who they are. I don't ,you don't and Joe shmo doesn't know Christ's church.
We are all confused and excited about nothing or not excited about nothing . When we believe we know the answers. We don't even live the part of a true follower of Christ. Not in the least. Just look at your life style for instance. I don't even really know you ,but I bet I could discribe your life style, not that I want a confrontation with you . Because I know how passionately you like a good fight.Remember I read you on the Yahoo SDA group.
Sorry Brother,
Forgive me,I don't mean to be offensive at all. I am busy learning to be humble and learning to really LOVE Father and my neighbor.No time for idle speculation,too much reading. Man's stuff.
Pray for me as I will for you,

Hi Bob,

This message reveals a lot in that it is being so careful not to reveal anything except to injure me. You seem a lot like George Bush, he throws bombs all over the world and then doesn't want to be confrontational.

Your first bomb is that you appreciate my ideas but then ask me not to send you any more. It is hard to read through something like that so I can only presume that you are part of the Republican Church and this is your way of venting.

The second bomb is that you do not believe me at all and have found Biblical errors. You need to be much more specific than that to be taken seriously. What biblical errors? I am only too happy to lovingly respond to what you think are my errors.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the churches, none of them have the entire truth but many of the people have Jesus. I do not see a true follower of Christ in you. We are supposed to be unified in our thinking, at least on the essentials, and we should absolutely show latitude on the nonessentials. It has to be in love regardless.

As far knowing who the true Christians are, Jesus said in Matthew 7 that we are to know them by their fruits. The Republican Church has blood on their hands and to hear that only entrenches them more into the delusions they are under. To re-elect a murderous, oppressive government simply because they want the abortion laws changed have put them into judgment much more severe than any fetus being terminated. Millions upon millions of people are dying and suffering all over the world so that the super rich can keep their life style and with that incredible moat in their eye you think that you can see far enough to criticize my life style without even knowing me. You are clearly confusing me with someone else, I have never been part of any SDA group.

Your bombs have all fizzled Bob. You say that you are sorry and after all these offensive remarks tell the latter rain list that you do not want to be offensive. The fact is that you do not want me to challenge all of your delusions and false assumptions. I am throwing these bombs back at you and the fuse is lit. Are you to let them blow up in your face or do you have the courage to add specifics to all these general accusations toward me. If you are really honest in wanting to be humble, you had better get on your knees with God's stuff, not your own. Don't bother writing back with an empty apology, you already did that. I will pray for you as you ask but I will pray that you will get back to me with some spiritual substance in you.

Thanks for the letter, I appreciate it too.


Sorry Brother Jay,
If I have you confused with someone else. I guess I have a huge mote in my eye that you do not.
I don't know where you got my e-mail address. I do not feel any animosity toward you.Please just excuse my mistake if you will and we will part company.My plitical beliefs are obviously different and I do not wish to confront you with a dialog on any terms.

Thank you
Father bless you,


I had expected more than this from you Bob, I prayed and hoped for more anyway.

I got your e-mail address because you signed up on the list. Please follow the unsubscribe link at the bottom of the newsletter, Thanks.


Do you believe Billy Graham was a false prophet? Your answer will determine what I think of what you believe in.
I wonder if you havent gone so far to the political left that you cant see who has a relationship with God and who dosent.  While you are spending so much time deciding who babylon is, why dont you use that energy simply to love people to Christ?  I believe you love God, but your writing has no joy in it, nor does is spread the word of God, it creates devision.  God is angry with America because she aborts babies, and until we have people like you that have so much passion and stands against this kind of behavior and getting off your pias soap box, America will be doomed to judgement.  I am guilty of this, and its pressures to hide and sacrifice the innocent in the name of decency.  With this option many women are pressured to kill the unborn by husbands, boyfreinds, and relatives.  Yes, some make the choice on their own, but if it was not an option, other people could not pressure them into it.  So if America keeps filling dumpster with human flesh, God will raise his hand against America, no matter who has the political office.

Teresa Scarber

Hi Teresa,

No, I do not believe that Billy Graham was a false prophet. I don't know that he had the prophetic gift either, he was an evangelist. I don't think he went far enough. My mother coaxed me into going down the aisle at the Cow Palace in San Francisco when he was there in the fifties. As a teenager, I don't think it did me any good but God had other plans to reveal Himself to me later. Billy didn't save anyone in his crusades, Jesus did. I would challenge anyone however to say that he did not lead many people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Does that meet with your approval? Not that I need it.

The Republican Church is so far to the extreme right that anything else whatsoever is on the left. I am not alone in thinking the American Church or America or the Christian Right is Babylon. If you love Reggae like I do, you know that the concept of bringing down American Babylon has been around for many years. I have been saying it for years, it is not some new revelation.

In my newsletter I mentioned about hundreds of Iraqis being killed for every American soldier. I am really not looking to say that in a joyful way. The figures are 1,255,026 Iraqis killed and 4,155 U.S. military. Do you have any concern for these people? Did you vote for George Bush the second time, even after he was exposed as a liar and a murderous oppressor? You mention abortion, how has that gone for you the last seven years. Has Bush ever done anything in a righteous sense?

Shed blood is judged by God and by your hand at the ballot box, you have shed blood and held personally accountable to God for that as if you held the machine gun or fired the mortar. You are so concerned about the unborn and then allow millions and millions of living, breathing people around the world to die and suffer just so an elite group of rich people can live better. My work dried up because of you and all the others with you. My niece lost her home because you fought for a party that deregulated the bankers. Do you know how stupid that is? I don't think you care. The occupation of Iraq has cost us over a half a trillion dollars. Clinton left his job with a surplus and now we are so hopelessly in debt, we will never get out. Is that enough joy for you?


Yes he was a evangelist, but he has brought more people to God than the writing I see below.  His message was simple, and very affective because it was from the bible.  No tricks, no fancy entertainment, just simple preaching.   He has given his entire life to bring Gods message to people, and he does not judge people by their political party, or how they look or who they are.  Your experience at a crusade has nothing to do with his credibility to reach people for God. No preacher can reach everyone when they preach so I am not sure why you even mentioned it.   People tend to devalue hearing the word of God, but it is the way to God.  The Holy Spirit is the author of it.
What you do is wrong in a time when people should be sharing Gods word to bring in the harvest. You cant reach a republican or a democrat for God with all the biased writing you do.   The Latter Rain is for Gods purpose and you have taken it upon yourself try to turn it into political cause for the left.  You should not be left or right if you have a genuine relationship with God.  The people of America has to stop abortion, and a man with your passion could do more good to bring that to peoples attention than worrying about Babylon.  Let God take care of judgment day, I promise, he is big enough, and he is in control.

You make it too easy Teresa,

You asked me if I thought Billy Graham was a false prophet, I said no, shared a true experience in my life and said that I would challenge anyone who would not say that he has led many to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. You faulted me for that. I guess if I had said the opposite, your response would be the same so I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. There is no reasoning with you.


The Whore Church of Babylon is not the Republican Church (Because there is nothing known by that name), it is the Catholic Church . It not only dominates the Republican party, it also dominates the Democratic Party because it is CHURCH UNIVERSAL infiltrating all denominations, and all political parties. The Catholic Church is not sequestered from Communism, Socialism, Republicanism, or any ISM, but aligns itself with any and all change agents of power.
You did not mention the word CATHOLIC once in your article, therefore you missed the ELEPHANT in the room.
Art Fortt

Hi Art,

The Christian Right has been around for many years, in that it embodies the Republican Church, we need no other name for it.

Many people agree with you about the Roman Church but they have no influence at all upon our current situation. If you are somehow waiting for it to be the whore that it was 500 years ago, you may have to wait that long again.


    The Christian Right has been around for many years, in that it embodies
    the Republican Church, we need no other name for it.

The Christian right is a relatively new term, specific to the USA, which is not a very old country. The term does not relate to a church, but relates to the political persuasion of many churches, denominations, and is not exclusive to "Christianity".

    Many people agree with you about the Roman Church but they have no influence at all upon our current situation.

Reply: Wrong: They have everything to do with it, because Rome is a political institution that leads the political right, and runs the USA today.

    If you are somehow waiting for it to be the whore that it was 500 years ago, you may have to wait that long again.

Reply:  i wish you were right, but you are wrong. Rome never changes. She is still the Whore she always was, and is gaining strength daily, here and abroad.
You seem to have alot of bad information.  

Nature of the Church

Hello there,

I have been receiving your emails and have visited your website. I find what you have to say very interesting. I too have held many views similar to you. However, my family and I have recently decided to convert to the Catholic Church. Our research led us to the conviction that the Catholic Church is the ancient Christian Church. Please believe me when I say that I never intended to become Catholic, however, at some point the evidence completely outweighed the argument for us. One huge paradigm shift for us was the understanding of the nature of the church. As evangelical protestants we believed that the church is a spiritual entity, not bound by denominations or other ecclesiastical organizations, and that the church was catholic (universal) with a small "c".

To our surprise, we found that the ancient church was an organized entity with a definite hierarchy of leadership in the Bishops, Presbyters (elders) and Deacons. We also learned that the early church said it could be identified by specific identifying characteristics. The Church is One, Holy, Catholic (big "C") and Apostolic. The early church was definitely an organized entity that could be easily identified. Today, there are over 30,000 protestant denominations in the world that hold widely varying positions on extremely important doctrines such as salvation and justification, among others. We could find no protestant teaching that was authoritatively binding upon the consciences of all Christians, because there was no protestant teacher that could claim that mantle. Every time we went back to scripture alone as our final authority, we had to ask ourselves, is our own interpretation of scripture binding and if not, whose is? Sola Scriptura inevitably results in individual interpretation of Scripture. So...we asked, who is right?

We wanted to practice the purest form of Christianity available in the world today so we decided to trace the various protestant teachings back through church history. What we learned was astonishing. For the first 1000 years of Christianity, there was only one Church. It was the Catholic Church. Protestant interpretation of scripture can be traced no further than the reformation in the 16th Century. However, Catholic interpretation of scripture can be traced to the early church fathers, the apostles and to The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In fact, it was the Catholic Church that compiled and ratified the scriptures of the Christian Canon. Who better to interpret the Bible than the church who gave it to us?

As I stated before, I have found your views interesting. But, have you done your due diligence in forming your doctrines or are they simply your own interpretation of scripture? I would ask that you take a fair and open minded look at the Catholic Church. You may be thoroughly surprised by truth.

In Christ Jesus

Hi Rocky,

It is good to hear from you, much better this way since you earlier told me you wanted to unsubscribe.

It is also good to hear when someone finds a church that holds to their convictions and whenever I have gone into a Catholic Church, I have not been disappointed. I can fellowship with you and I can also share communion with you. As far as conversion however, I converted to the Lord Jesus long ago and for me to convert to any church would not be possible. I would never want to dissuade you from being where you are, if you find God there, then that is where you should stay and I have known many spiritually filled Catholics.

There are many people that think I am a Roman Catholic because like you say, we share similar views. The fact is that I am neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant. Whenever I am accused of being too Roman, it doesn't offend me much because I have been fair and open minded, when people accuse me of being a Protestant, I get very defensive. Much of my historical background has been from Catholic, not Puritan sources and I have risen above any protest long ago.  

The true church of Jesus is a spiritual entity. The small c catholic that you mention is the universal church and includes not only the saints here on earth but the ones that have passed on, this is the communion of saints and is not confined to Rome. I do not hold to Sola Scriptura as you might suppose. The Romans hold that the Church has the final authority on faith and doctrine, the Protestants hold that the Bible is the final authority and I hold that the Holy Spirit has the final authority. Major differences but not enough for me to think that I need any church to interpret scripture for me. It may be different for you.

You have suggested a few of the reasons that I could never join a Catholic Church. You say we share similar views "however" now that you are Catholic it somehow makes a difference. Anyone can easily see a cultish attitude in that statement. The hierarchy that you mention is another reason I cannot become Catholic. You mention Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons and then omit Archbiships, Cardinals and Popes. I do not look to Rome for the practice of early Christians but to the church at Jerusalem recorded in the book of Acts.

Probably the best reason you have given me to avoid the Catholic Church is your statement that I "may be thoroughly surprised by truth." To say that to me betrays an self-righteous arrogance that is too obvious to elaborate on.

I do thank you for writing and pray the best for you.

Yours in Jesus,


Thanks for writing back Jay. You have indeed appropriated some Catholicity in your views. You do appear to be open minded and obviously have an immense about of information on your website. I am impressed by your research and how well read you are. I have not only shared similar doctrinal views with you, but have also had some of the same experiences as you have ie, going from church to church, resisting right wing politics, searching for moderation and having a drinking problem etc. Also, thank you for your encouragement in my journey to the Roman Catholic Church, it has been awesome.

There is just a couple things I would like to clear up though. I too believe that the Holy Spirit has the final authority. But how does He manifest that authority? Whether we rely on the magisterium of the church or sola scriptura, the Holy Spirit must still use a human agent to communicate His truth. Is that human agent each individual's own interpretation, as you contend, or is that human agent the Church through the magistarium as I contend? If it is individual, then whose individual interpretation is true and binding? How can we know? Anyone can say they have an interpretation that comes from the Holy Spirit. And there are many who have, which has led to the disunity and fragmentation of the faith. However, if that human agent is the magisterium, then we can be confident that the teaching and interpretation is true and binding through the authority that has been given to the bishops who are the successors of the apostles. (The pope and the cardinals are bishops by the way).

Being Catholic does make a difference. As a protestant I believed one church was probably as good as another. The motto, "whatever works for you" is one I have heard several times since converting to the Catholic Church. However, it is not about me or my own interpretation of scripture or creating a gospel in my own image. There can be no unity in that. In the Catholic Church we not only have spiritual communion, the unity of the Holy Spirit, but we also are unified through the Eucharist. Through the partaking of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ we are made one with Him and with each other. Through the Eucharist our relationship with Christ is consummated. Pope Benedict recently stated that the goal of ecumenism is the celebration of a common Eucharist. As a protestant I became extremely disappointed at the lack of unity within the church. I thought, how can this unity be attained? Where do we start? What are the goals of this unity and who has the authority to set those goals? I have found the answers to my questions in the Catholic Church.

Certainly, I meant no disrespect and intended no self-righteous arrogance in my statement about being surprised by the truth that can be found in the Catholic Church. But I understand your response. To say that one has found the true faith established by Christ Himself, I know, can sound arrogant. But, I do not think it is anymore arrogant to say that than to say that Christ is the only way to the Father, a statement I am sure you would agree with. Christ would not have left us without shepherds to guide us. He would not have left us to ourselves with no structure, authority, or process in which to discern truth. I do believe, brother, that the full deposit of the Christian faith rests peacefully and authoritatively in the Catholic Church.

Thank you again for your input. May God Bless you richly,


Thanks for that Rocky. Just so that you know that my catholicity is with a small c and I don't need to be Roman Catholic to have the Holy Spirit's influence in my life or to recognize truth.


May The Lord bless you and keep you.


    I think that no one knows the things you are talking about. The great whore, for example, has been identified as the Holy Roman Church (not recently though) and now it is the Republican party. I doubt that anyone will know their identities or their date and hour of appearance.
   For example, I believe that Obama is probably the antichrist, that the great whore is the muslim religion, and Jesus will return in about 8-9 years.
To be the antichrist one must have the political power to pacify Israel and the Muslims in the world to the point that they will sign a peace treaty. Presently, Obama has the correct credentials to do just that: a muslim training in childhood muslim schools, a background in the Christian faith, listened to a rabid hater of America, and the list goes on.
   The Muslim religion has as its goal, total control of all peoples--a world wide religion--and it will start here, as evidenced by the growing number of Muslims in the Western world. It will start here because of the laxity of our Federal Constitution and the 1st amendment privilege and religious tolerance.
   The average common man on the street has no knowledge of the issues involved because the majority of Major Religious Denominations do not teach about the end times from the pulpit.
   The Later Rain will come with the establishment of God's physical Kingdom for Israel. Their baptism into the Kingdom is the later rain and mot of the Jews I know have a deep yearning for this to occur.
   Finally, the Myan Calendar runs out in 2012 (8 years from now) with predictions of a catastrophe so great that all peoples will be annihilated at that point in time.
   In summary, you are mistaken about the role of the Republican part in all this mess.
Richard Hogue

Thanks that was very enlightening...

Donald Mills

And thanks to you Donald. It's always nice to hear when I am getting through.


Hi Jay,
I hope you will receive my email personally.
My feelings regarding the latter rain will not happen until the tribulation.
The bible says we will be in "apostasy"
Thats why the saints are in white robes, as they died during the tribulation for choosing their savior, and this will be the time of the latter rain, because people will then wake up- either God or flesh/satan.
Too many of God's children living in the flesh right now which goes along with the apostasy.
When the trib comes, it will be satan or finally choosing God.  They will be behead-- for the testimony of our savior.
I know people can't see this. But this is my deep down feeling. The church right now just goes to church, and then lives the fleshly life.  So soon God will give everyone that chance to choose.

Hi Bonnie,

It's really lucky that I saw your letter. You didn't send it to me directly but to the mailing list itself which is reserved for automatic deletion into a deep spam hole of unsolicited garbage. How I specifically plucked this one out is interesting.

Couldn't agree with you more on most of what you say, I differ only slightly in the timeline.

It may surprise many but I believe as you do that the latter rain is not here yet. I know of the pretended prophets saying that we are in the time of the latter rain right now but if that is true, where is it? Many think that it came at Pentecost, others think that it started when Israel became a state, but I reject those notions. The Lord brought these things about and we would not need to pray for rain in the time of the latter rain if those things are true. None of us really know these things yet for a certainty but I am of the inclination that the latter rain will start just before the tribulation. The rain will fall on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Some will soak it in, some will shake it off.

You are also right in that we are in the time of apostasy. The delusion of the Republican Church presents itself as a product of true faith in Jesus and a fulfillment of the latter rain. I see it as a deceitful, murderous aberration of the true faith and a total repudiation of what Jesus taught us when He walked the earth. The apostasy is certainly not confined to the Republican Church, the living in the flesh that you mention is rampant in all of the churches.

Keep the faith Bonnie, you have already chosen wisely.


Hi Jay,

       I think we are getting through to more people than we know but not everyone has the courage to speak up. I notice on Lightship, there are always a few precious ones who will write, but only occasionally someone will come out from the shadows and say "I needed to hear what you said", and you realize there are more alongside us than we can see.

       War is one of those messes too big to clear up, very depressing and frustrating to boot: it has all marched on regardless of what anyone thinks. Hard for some of us to cope with the reality of it psychologically.

       On your other points I find it depressing also, that the same spiritual subjects are still abused over and over in church, and people are still falling foul of the same things, which amount to quenching the Spirit. And then they go on the attack with anyone who says different. It only takes a little leaven to leaven the whole lump and there is enough of that remaining even after all this time, that people are still falling foul of it and we have to say the same thing, all over again.

        Everyone would probably like to hear exactly what your position is on dispensationalism and why, complete with warnings. You could stir us up. That should bring a few out of hiding because they will want to protect their church. Just a thought.

It was said from the pulpit at home here that we should never look back, but always forward. That is frustrating for people when we have problems (and you would have to be blind to think we have no problems in the church), because no one wants to spend the time going over it with us to help us...and it explains the denial that exists in the church: so long as everyone slaps a smile on their faces they will be convinced that all is well.

        Looking back to me is a useful exercise because it is in past experience that I find God has furnished me with stuff to help others.
People say the stupidest things.

See you later

Love, Mary

Thank you.
I have said so many times, Jesus is not a Republican and God not an American.
People still have their eyes on the darlings of Politics and that has become their god.  So much for Sarah Palin, whoever she is...I already see who she isn't.  Sorry.
We are too far down the page to think that the story will change.  Only hearts known to God will change.
I pray for all those that are lifted up in the false god of America seeking to serve their pride through the beast system to be revealed, and for those that are genuine that the healing fountain I saw in a dream in DC will be for those that seek Jesus, for there is no other that can deliver.

Wow Karen,

Sounds like something I would say. To say more, Sarah Palin is part of the delusion that God has sent to those who have not received the love of the truth. That is one reason that she is being caught in so many lies. She will appeal to all of those who are under the same delusion and at this point, seems restricted to the Republican Church.

The story will ultimately change however, we may indeed be part of the beast system but many of us have not succumbed to the delusion and as other hearts change and as these things you mention are revealed, there will be better times to come. It may only be temporary but something I am really looking forward to and in the meantime, I would like to take as many wounded people out of the firing line as possible and into that healing fountain of Jesus.

Thanks for being here.


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